Starting problem Villiers MK10

Hello there all you engine buffs

I have a Villiers MK10 engine which drives a dynamo. Yes! a dynamo, as opposed to an alternator. It is used on a boat and is solely to charge the batteries in an emergency. The main engine on the boat is a Lister JP3 which originally had three methods of starting: electric starter, compressed air starter and manual crank start. The manual gearing long ago rusted away and cannot be used. There is insufficient space for compressed air so I rely entirely on electric starting. The lister drives an alternator to charge the batteries but I have to have a method of starting if the batteries were to go flat while at sea. Hence the Villiers MK10. All this probably leads you to think that this is an old boat and you'd be right. However, I'm not here to discuss that at the moment. My villiers runs OK provided I use the dynastart; that is, use the dynamo as a motor powered by the batteries to start it. You can see a bit of a paradox here, can't you? It is proving to be almost imossible to start by the cord/pulley. I have a knowledge of how engines work but very little experience of repairing/servicing. I expect that there are plenty of reasons for this problem and I'm sure you will all be asking me about spark plugs, carburettor, compression and so-on. I put a new plug in which gets pretty black after only a few minutes of running and I've played about with different venturis in the carburettor. There doesn't appear to be any leaks around the cylinder head and it runs quite smoothly all the time it's going. Do any of you fine chaps have any experience like this and if so a solution? I have a copy of the manual to refer to.

Regards
TonyP

TonyP wrote:Hello there all you engine buffs

I have a Villiers MK10 engine which drives a dynamo. Yes! a dynamo, as opposed to an alternator. It is used on a boat and is solely to charge the batteries in an emergency. The main engine on the boat is a Lister JP3 which originally had three methods of starting: electric starter, compressed air starter and manual crank start. The manual gearing long ago rusted away and cannot be used. There is insufficient space for compressed air so I rely entirely on electric starting. The lister drives an alternator to charge the batteries but I have to have a method of starting if the batteries were to go flat while at sea. Hence the Villiers MK10. All this probably leads you to think that this is an old boat and you'd be right. However, I'm not here to discuss that at the moment. My villiers runs OK provided I use the dynastart; that is, use the dynamo as a motor powered by the batteries to start it. You can see a bit of a paradox here, can't you? It is proving to be almost imossible to start by the cord/pulley. I have a knowledge of how engines work but very little experience of repairing/servicing. I expect that there are plenty of reasons for this problem and I'm sure you will all be asking me about spark plugs, carburettor, compression and so-on. I put a new plug in which gets pretty black after only a few minutes of running and I've played about with different venturis in the carburettor. There doesn't appear to be any leaks around the cylinder head and it runs quite smoothly all the time it's going. Do any of you fine chaps have any experience like this and if so a solution? I have a copy of the manual to refer to.

Regards
TonyP

Welcome tony .

Your man for this would be Kev as he knows his small air cooled engines well , and please try to post in right section .

Thanks , matt

Sounds to me like the engine is getting a bit old. I would hazard a guess that the piston rings could be shot or the bore could be a bit worn. Either that or the carb is getting choked which is making the plug go black, which would be easier to sort out but my guess is it is burning oil and losing compression. How does the compression feel when you turn it over?


Being on a boat ideally you should have a little diesel engine for charging. Something like my Petter AA1 coupled to a dynamo/alternator would be a lot more reliable and safer. It would mean extra expenditure though

See what Kev says, he knows more than me about these little engines.

Hi Tony sounds an odd one but sounds as if the engine needs a good looking over. The black plugs is a carb problem probably down to wear but the starting is an odd one myself I'd be checking the points and changine the condensor. Just a thought and not wanting to put an engine out of work, would solar panels not be your answer/ just a thought.

Stu.

Hello All

Firstly, to Mark. many thanks for your prompt reply and please accept my apologies for posting in the wrong section. I hope I'm in the right place now. If not, please advise.

Ian, I take your point about a diesel engine, it would be better in many ways. However, I'm trying to keep my boat as near as I can as it was. And I want to keep down costs. My dad had this vessel from 1968 until 1991 and it was on there when he acquired it, so it is quite old. Having said that, I don't know how much it has been used and might very well have been secondhand when it was installed.

Stu, I reckon you are right, it surely does need a good looking at and I know just the man to do it - if I can persuade him. Your suggestion of solar panels would not work as an emergency charger unless I had a football pitch sized deck to put them on. I need a quick method of putting in a charge enough to start the Lister if I'm caught out at sea; very unlikely but I prefer not to take unnecessary risks.

Will Kev answer to this message or do I need to contact him directly? If the latter, how?

Regards
Tony

Kev might answer this when he gets up of his bum and reads it lol

Yes its in the right place as i moved it yesterday . Have a look through the forum the sections have been organized and are self explanatory from the names .

matt

These Villiers engines are known for magneto problems, so I would check there first. The coils aren't the best & in a salty environment could succumb to corrosion. You can buy new coils, but first you should test the old one.

The black spark plug could be down to carb mixture, or it could be down to piston rings or valve guides. I would hazard a guess that this engine hasn't seen much service on this boat, as it should only be needed in an emergency, & good boaters rarely have emergencies (I've done a little boating, & have worked on a few, but mainly inland craft).

I would suggest a partial strip down. You need to strip the mag down & clean everything up. The points will need cleaning, while you're there you should test the coil & see about replacing the condenser.
Then I would suggest a "top-end" strip down. I would remove the head, re-grind the valves in, checking the guides & seats. Perhaps remove the barrel/piston (not sure if the barrel can be removed from the crank case on these, but you'll need access to the piston for the following) & check the piston rings, free off any stuck ones, very carefully remove them, clean the grooves & the backs of the rings with fine wet & dry paper lubricated with a little WD40 or GT85, then clean & reassemble.

A day's work I reckon, or a few part-day visits, depending on how close it is. You'll be surprised at the difference it makes.

Only once it's running & you're satisfied on all the above points can you start to set the carb up properly, which isn't a long or difficult job in itself. Hopefully then you'll have a good little runner & very reliable back-up source of battery charging.

Don't suppose you're in Sussex or the South East are you? I'd gladly come along & give you a hand if you are. I'm currently working on a friend's boat in Newhaven, only his is a little bit larger (I'll update this with a few pics when they've finished downloading).

Best of luck, hope this helps.

Here's a few pics of my friend's boat I've been working on recently. It's ex-military, Sweedish, he wants to convert it to live on & wants me to sort out the electrics & domestic systems. Here's some of the existing electrical panels....





Here's the bilge pump control valves....



& here's a couple of shots of the engines, there were originally 3 Scannia engines of 300bhp each, these were replaced with 2 Volvo Penta units of 450bhp each, real monsters!....





Previously to that I have worked on my parent's boats. They lived on a narrow boat & then moved to a Dutch Barge, which ended up in France, both of which I did extensive work on.

I know I've gone completely :offtopic[1]: now, but I couldn't help myself. I do love my boats.

now thats in the field for Andy aka blackvanman i believe he had alot to do with volvo marine engines etc

matt

matt86 wrote:now thats in the field for Andy aka blackvanman i believe he had alot to do with volvo marine engines etc

matt

Oh yes, so he did, I seem to remember him saying something about it in the past. He'll probably be able to tell me the exact model & everything. TBH I'm only interested in the alternators in a professional level, in a curiosity level I'm interested in the whole damn boat, I love it, especially being ex-military. Trouble is everything's in Sweedish, so I'm having to use a google translate app on my phone.

matt86 wrote:Kev might answer this when he gets up of his bum and reads it lol

Yes its in the right place as i moved it yesterday . Have a look through the forum the sections have been organized and are self explanatory from the names .

matt

hi there sorry tony for not responding sooner
i missed this posting
how old is the fuel and sump oil
as the small villiers like to soot up over i sillyest things
1 is the carbs choke working and sticking slightly before fully off
2 airfilter clean
3 points making a blue spark when spun over with the ht off the sparkplug / white is not enough to start the mk10-12-15-20-25
4 screw the ht if you can out the rear alloy casting there is a small spring and screw into the h/t lead and it pushes the domed cup onto the coil not soldered
5 use a amp meter onto the alloy casting/flywheel backplate and onto the ht lead ,if good should show around 600-1000 ohms
6 is the timing mark on the flywheel out edge lining up with the mark on the top of the backplate when the points are closed

heres the top 6 faults that i come across on these villiers
if not tell me what you do find out and the stamped numbers of the flywheel so i have a better idea what is hiding behind the flywheel ect
kev

Well now, Thank you all for your informative responses. Matt, I'm a retired IT technician for Manx Airlines having graduated from an electronics background but I don't use forums (or is it fora?) as a rule, but you might expect me not to have made such a silly error, wouldn't you?

It looks as if I've opened a box of biscuits (that's a euphemism for 'a can of worms' or 'a bag of nails' but a bit more positive, don't you think?).

Nutgone, (I lost my nuts once but I found them later quivering under the bed. Must have been the wrench.) thanks for your suggestions. (Also thank you for the pictures of your friend's boat.) I noticed that you have put them in an order of priority; things to try one-at-a-time. It's quite ironic that you should ask if I'm in Sussex. I currently live in the Isle of Man (and likely to remain here). However, I was born in Chichester and lived in Midhurst, Trotton and Pertersfield until I left school. Then I went to live with my dad in Battle and attended the Hastings and St. Leonards Technical College from 1960-1962. Then I went to London. I returned to the South East, (Folkestone) in 1973 ish and in '77 to Manchester. In 1984 I moved to the Isle of Man.

My dad bought this boat in 1968 from somebody in Hamworthy and berthed it in Rye. Around 1976 he retired and moved to Polruan in Cornwall. The boat was originally a 28ft sailing boat built in Mevagissy for a Brixham fisherman, by Percy Mitchell in 1937. (So you could say it went home.) It was later converted into a motor cruiser, I'm guessing around 1948. The Lister was installed at that time. And for all I know, the auxiliary generator, using the Villiers MK10 was also installed at that time. I'm currently in the process of restoring some of it as the decks need replacing and some structural work is required. But as this is not a boat forum I'll not go on about it here unless particular interest from members is evident.

Assuming, for a moment, that the piston rings, valves and bore are all good and that I've serviced the magneto, what is the process for 'setting up the carburettor'? A while ago I fiddled about with 3 or 4 different venturi on it but it didn't help. These were supplied to me free by a very kind chap whose name escapes me, but who might well be a member of this forum. If I find his name on one of my many little bits of paper I'll publish it here.

By the way; my next door neighbour is Swedish so if you get stuck with any translations I'm sure that she would help you out. I'll post my email address, when I'm allowed, and you can send it to me. Then I'll get her to look at it. She owes me some favours!

Kev, I guess I'm guilty about the fuel and oil. I've had both for some years. This is another question as I can't get LRP on IOM. I don't know what additive to use in lead free petrol. Or even if I can get it here. Although I would think I can as there are quite a few vintage car buffs in these 'ere 'ills, but I don't know any of them. Please advise on this. I took the air filter off last year and cleaned the jammed choke slider which now opens and closes freely. The filter looks a bit clogged. Should I replace it? The filter cannot be removed from its housing without removing the rivets that hold it all together. Where can I get parts for this engine? Would you be so kind as to give me more details about your 4th point please. ("Screw the ht if you can" doesn't seem quite appropriate somehow! I've never been successful at measuring ohms on an ammeter, but I know what you mean.) When this engine is started it runs much too fast for the purpose so I suppose I need to make some adjustment to the governor/throttle link. Any suggestions on this would be appreciated. As it is driving a dynamo minimum speed is not critical as it would be on an alternator.

Phew! that's all I can think of for now. regards to you all.
Tony

I tell you what's even stranger, I lived on the Isle of Mann for 3 years when I was a kid. My parents bought the Glen Mona hotel, on Mona Drive in Douglas (not the other Glen Mona which is somewhere else on the island) back in November 1988, we moved back to Sussex in June 1991, so our paths may have crossed (although I was only about 10 years old at the time).

My points about the engine can be roughly translated to pretty much any similar engine. Kev's the fellow to help with problems relating directly to Villiers engines.

The setting up of the carb should be relatively simple, once she's running. It's usually just a case of fiddling with various mixture screws until you get it right.

I, for one, would be interested to hear a bit about your boat, especially as it has what constitutes 2 whole stationary engines on board (the main propulsion engine still counts, kind of). Maybe you could write a little about it in the non-engine section, I'm sure others would be interested.

Good luck, if I think of anything else I will be sure to post back.

TonyP wrote:Well now, Thank you all for your informative responses. Matt, I'm a retired IT technician for Manx Airlines having graduated from an electronics background but I don't use forums (or is it fora?) as a rule, but you might expect me not to have made such a silly error, wouldn't you?

It looks as if I've opened a box of biscuits (that's a euphemism for 'a can of worms' or 'a bag of nails' but a bit more positive, don't you think?).

Nutgone, (I lost my nuts once but I found them later quivering under the bed. Must have been the wrench.) thanks for your suggestions. (Also thank you for the pictures of your friend's boat.) I noticed that you have put them in an order of priority; things to try one-at-a-time. It's quite ironic that you should ask if I'm in Sussex. I currently live in the Isle of Man (and likely to remain here). However, I was born in Chichester and lived in Midhurst, Trotton and Pertersfield until I left school. Then I went to live with my dad in Battle and attended the Hastings and St. Leonards Technical College from 1960-1962. Then I went to London. I returned to the South East, (Folkestone) in 1973 ish and in '77 to Manchester. In 1984 I moved to the Isle of Man.

My dad bought this boat in 1968 from somebody in Hamworthy and berthed it in Rye. Around 1976 he retired and moved to Polruan in Cornwall. The boat was originally a 28ft sailing boat built in Mevagissy for a Brixham fisherman, by Percy Mitchell in 1937. (So you could say it went home.) It was later converted into a motor cruiser, I'm guessing around 1948. The Lister was installed at that time. And for all I know, the auxiliary generator, using the Villiers MK10 was also installed at that time. I'm currently in the process of restoring some of it as the decks need replacing and some structural work is required. But as this is not a boat forum I'll not go on about it here unless particular interest from members is evident.

Assuming, for a moment, that the piston rings, valves and bore are all good and that I've serviced the magneto, what is the process for 'setting up the carburettor'? A while ago I fiddled about with 3 or 4 different venturi on it but it didn't help. These were supplied to me free by a very kind chap whose name escapes me, but who might well be a member of this forum. If I find his name on one of my many little bits of paper I'll publish it here.

By the way; my next door neighbour is Swedish so if you get stuck with any translations I'm sure that she would help you out. I'll post my email address, when I'm allowed, and you can send it to me. Then I'll get her to look at it. She owes me some favours!

Kev, I guess I'm guilty about the fuel and oil. I've had both for some years. This is another question as I can't get LRP on IOM. I don't know what additive to use in lead free petrol. Or even if I can get it here. Although I would think I can as there are quite a few vintage car buffs in these 'ere 'ills, but I don't know any of them. Please advise on this. I took the air filter off last year and cleaned the jammed choke slider which now opens and closes freely. The filter looks a bit clogged. Should I replace it? The filter cannot be removed from its housing without removing the rivets that hold it all together. Where can I get parts for this engine? Would you be so kind as to give me more details about your 4th point please. ("Screw the ht if you can" doesn't seem quite appropriate somehow! I've never been successful at measuring ohms on an ammeter, but I know what you mean.) When this engine is started it runs much too fast for the purpose so I suppose I need to make some adjustment to the governor/throttle link. Any suggestions on this would be appreciated. As it is driving a dynamo minimum speed is not critical as it would be on an alternator.

Phew! that's all I can think of for now. regards to you all.
Tony

tony
just standard unleaded is fine in these engines ,the valves are good quality, hardened properly at the factory to cope with modern fuels
venturys what is themake, model numbers on the carbs casting i.e villiers cm.380, b10 , b10/1, b10/2,b12/6, are the common ones andthe next are not so common on the model 10s and 12s :-
b12/7 b1016 amal,solex,zenith 24t2 usually on the larger ones but somtimes fitted to pump/geny engines

once we get this bit over with then we can get the tecnical parts and settings done easy peasy ish
if you need carb gaskets or thickness of the material let me know i have a load of varitys on my shelf ive made ready for when needed
kev

Hiya Kev

Many thanks for that information. I'm surprised that unleaded fuel is OK. I always thought that these old engines would be ruined by it. Still, if you say it's alright, then, who am I to argue with that? I don't know which carburettor version is fitted so I'll have a look when I go to the boat. At the moment it's out of the water, on a farm about 3 1/2 miles from my house.

Perhaps I'm being over optimistic but I don't think that there is very much wrong with this engine that a bit of expert tweaking wouldn't solve.

Regards
Tony

It's a common myth that unleaded fuel will ruin these old engines, in almost every case it just won't, besides you'd have to run them an awful lot to even start to find out if it was doing any damage.

When I was in school, in the early 90s, I managed to get a week of work experience for my brother & me at the world renowned Ricardos Engineering in Shoreham, West Sussex (they have a part in the design of just about every engine in the world, in one way of another), they confirmed all this about leaded/unleaded fuels.

If anyone's that bothered I always say you might as well stick a drop of 2 stroke oil in with the petrol, it'll probably do more than any of these additives you can buy.

TonyP wrote:Hiya Kev

Many thanks for that information. I'm surprised that unleaded fuel is OK. I always thought that these old engines would be ruined by it. Still, if you say it's alright, then, who am I to argue with that? I don't know which carburettor version is fitted so I'll have a look when I go to the boat. At the moment it's out of the water, on a farm about 3 1/2 miles from my house.

Perhaps I'm being over optimistic but I don't think that there is very much wrong with this engine that a bit of expert tweaking wouldn't solve.

Regards
Tony

Tony I have agree that there's not a lot wrong with the engine that a good service and the adjustments all set up would see her up and running again.
I think you need to resolve one problem at a time, have a look at the electrics starting with the points and checking maybe renewing parts as you check it out. then remove the carb clean it, refit it, start the engine and do the adjustments to the carb and governor. Treat it as 2 faults.
I understand what your saying about the solar panels I mentioned earlier, I was just meaning a small panel to trickle charge the batteries all the time so there always topped up not to use the panel as a means of starting the engine.
It would be interesting to hear more about your boat restoration as I think that if your into any kind of restoration work it's all ways interesting to see other work that people do.
As for additives, there not needed but if you want you can buy a can from car accessory shops that can be added to the petrol (all it does is put the lead back in) or a few drops of 2 stroke oil or even paraffin will all help as they add a lubricant. I add 2 stroke oil to my diesel van to help lubricate the pump and injectors and it does help.


Stu.

I realise that this is not really a subject for this forum but it has some relevance nonetheless, so please bear with me.
This one is really for Nutgone. As you are clearly well versed in posting pictures on this forum I'm askinfg for your assistance. I, too, have been trying to post pictures on it but without success. I have created an account with servimg and received login details. Unfortunately, the password is not accepted. I've changed it twice but none are accepted. Furthermore I have no means of contacting their moderators to get help - can't login, you see. I wonder if you could contact them on my behalf and get them to advise me. My email address is pickering@manx.net

Best regards
TonyP

TonyP wrote:I realise that this is not really a subject for this forum but it has some relevance nonetheless, so please bear with me.
This one is really for Nutgone. As you are clearly well versed in posting pictures on this forum I'm askinfg for your assistance. I, too, have been trying to post pictures on it but without success. I have created an account with servimg and received login details. Unfortunately, the password is not accepted. I've changed it twice but none are accepted. Furthermore I have no means of contacting their moderators to get help - can't login, you see. I wonder if you could contact them on my behalf and get them to advise me. My email address is pickering@manx.net

Best regards
TonyP

I'll have a go for you. Personally I prefer Photobucket, although they've just changed their format, I've stayed with their "Classic" site, as I prefer it for my needs.

Ah! thanks Nutgone. If you don't have an account with them you might not be any more able than I to contact them. Perhaps I'll give Photobucket a try if you have no success. In any event please don't take too much trouble over it. If their system is so flaky I wouldn't want to use it anyway.

Best regards
Tony

Oops! sorry about that, Matt. I always prefer to use people's proper names. I've never really liked nicknames. I presume that you prefer Matt to Mathew then.

Tony

Matt's fine (I've never liked nicknames myself, but I don't mind so much on line, seems different somehow).

I've done a quick search for Servimg, there seems to be a bit of bad press & quite a few people having trouble with them. I went to their homepage where there is a member log-in, but so far I'm unable to find any way of opening an account, registering or joining up in any way (unless I'm missing something blindingly obvious, it wouldn't be the first time )

I'll have another look later, see what I can do. My advice with photo hosting is to get used to one system & stick with it. For me this was Photobucket. I did open a Flickr account, but couldn't make head nor tail of the way it worked, it seemed very complicated to me, almost to the point of being un-usable, others may have more luck I suppose.

Anyway, like I said, I'll have another look into them later (you never know, I might learn something).

I've used Photo bucket for years now and never had any problems with them, I heard people say that they delete old pics but it's never happened to me and you can make your own files up and have them private or public.
Tony once you've been a member for more then 7 days you can use the other method to upload pics it's in this thread.

http://www.stationaryengineforum.net/t2492-step-by-step-photo-upload

Stu.

Hello Matt and Stu

Thanks for your info. I've managed to get onto servimg having created a fourth password. But since it's so flaky and you have read bad reports I think I'll go with photobucket since you have both tried and tested and found it to work well.

I have a quite long post to put here when I get that sorted out. Watch this space.

Best regards
Tony

Friday:

Hello Chaps

Thank you all very much for your contributions to my problem. I've brought my Villiers MK10 home to my workshop as I'm having some extra problems. The exhaust on it is quite different to the original due to the fact that it's located in a small cuddy on board so it has to be exhausted through a skin fitting. A pipe has been added at the manifold and wraps around just enough to prevent removal of the engine cowling. So this has to be removed first. Therein lies another problem. Because of the way it was done it was not possible to use the usual method of studs and nuts to secure it. Instead a standard screw was employed to hold one side which is well and truly stuck. Furthermore, there is very little room to use a meaty turn-screw. (Pedantic, aren't I? Who am I kidding - it's a screwdriver, plain and simple. Just showing off.) So, I’ve ground away the spring washer and poured a dose of diesel in to soak it. If that doesn't work I think I'll try grinding flats onto it and use a spanner. Last resort is grind off the top. I've got, among all the bits my dad had, a stud remover so that might come into play at some time. Until I get these off I can't get at the magneto.

I put a new spark plug in a couple of years ago. I wasn’t absolutely certain which one to use so I opted for a Champion D16. A D16 was already fitted so I fitted the same. Any comments on this from any of you?

Kev, the carb does not appear to have a type number on it, furthermore, the parts book that I have states that it doesn’t. It has Villiers. I’ve managed to get pictures at the end of this post I tried to put them here but wasn’t successful. If you know how to do it please tell me.

Saturday:
I came to the conclusion that the gasket was absorbing all of the diesel I was putting on the screw. I’ve tried several methods to get the blinking thing out and now the slot is so badly damaged that I’ve had to use the last resort. The head is now off, so is the exhaust pipe. The gasket is removed and the screw is now soaking in diesel. I’ll leave it well alone for twenty-four hours and try again.

Sunday:
I haven’t really made a big effort to get the screw out today. Just added more diesel to soak in. Meanwhile I’ve been looking at the sparking system. It’s not easy to clean the contact breaker points with the flywheel in situ. I don’t particularly wish to remove it as I might get the timing wrong putting it back. Incidentally, do I need a special tool to remove it? The pulley comes off easily but I’m given to understand that the flywheel fits onto a tapered end of the crankshaft, and the nut does not come off completely; it’s captured. Still, I’ve cleaned the points as best as I can and adjusted them to .014”. I think it was significantly greater than this. And the plug has been adjusted to .020”. I appear to be getting a nice blue spark now. So this could make a big difference.

Anybody seen that You Tube post of a guy starting his just turning the flywheel by hand? That’s what I call an easy start. Here’s the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ORLnVJ0hSY

Thursday:
Well, according to the Villiers user’s manual, it might be necessary to inject some fuel into the spark plug hole. I tried that and it started first pull. Not bad! So I’m going to rig up a proper fuel supply. (The original tank rusted a hole so I got my nephew, a welder, to make me a nice new one out of stainless steel.) But because of it being on a boat it cannot be mounted on the engine. Then I can run it for a while and get the speed adjusted with batteries connected. It might sound as if I know what I’m doing. I suppose I do to some extent but it’s always nice to hear from you who have lots of experience with this engine. I look forward to getting some tips from Kev on setting up the carburettor correctly.

I think that the guy who sent me the venturis mentioned in an earlier post, was Paul Childs of Meetens. I have some record of contacting him from some years ago. I think I’ll invest in a new air filter as the one I’ve got is a bit clogged and won’t clean. I expect it’s running rich which as you know will cause the plug-sooting that I’m getting.

Best regards
Tony