Lister d magneto problem

Hi guys, got a lister d (I believe 1935) it’s a reverse rotation with a tank cooling top, been outside for years, drained crankcase and filled and greased everything nessasary, freed everything up, rigged up a temp fuel tank, new plug and lead, wont fire, after a while discovered I got no spark, cleaned and set points, no change, my question is can the condenser cause no spark at all or is it more likely to be the coil windings? Also being anti-clockwise does this mean I need a different girl tank as the one with it fouls on the carb,
Thanks in advance
Sam

Hello Sam.  Fists off, a few questions.  What type (make and model) magneto is your Lister D fitted with?  Can you post some photos of the engine so we can see what we're dealing with, particularly where you say the tank is fouling the carb?  Also, do you own or have access to a 'multi-meter' to test electrical parts with?  If so, I can suggest a way for you to (partially) test the coil.  

As for draining the crankcase, did you take the crankcase door off to see if it's clean in there, or does it have a thick layer of sludge in the bottom?  If it has, then the fresh oil will probably dissolve some of that sludge and circulate it around the bearings, causing wear, particularly if the fresh oil is of a modern type with detergent properties.  The following photo shows the half-inch layer of gloopy, chocolate mousse type sludge that was lurking at the bottom of the crankcase on an untouched 1940 D I restored.  



You might be lucky and find that a previous owner had cleaned the crankcase and it's OK... if not, it might be just as well the engine didn't start as it will give you the chance to clean it out before running it.  Don't forget to wear rubber gloves as old engine oil and oil sludge has some nasty substances in it such as heavy metals and hydrocarbons, and dispose of it at a waste recycling facility (when they reopen again after lockdown).  Hope this suggestion is useful.

Thanks for the reply’s , I didn’t take the door off but I will do now as I just flushed it with diesel and I did think it took a suspiciously low amount of oil to fill it, I am using the correct mineral 30 oil, I’ll upload pictures, as for the multimeter- yes but it’s at work so I cannot get it ! I was willing to take a punt and order a £20 condenser off the internet if it was a likely culprit but if it’s more likely to be the coil I’ll wait until I get my multimeter

My mistake with the tank I figured it out now, just the lack of spark!
Removed the crankcase door was all ok but well worth checking
Thanks
Sam

Mag is a Lucas SR1. In my opinion probably the worst mag ever made, I've known these to have a duff coile even when brand new. Chances are it's buggered.

After looking at the photos things don't appear to fit for the serial number and spec, if I've read it right - Serial No 106841 (which indicates a Spec 13D from around July/August 1933)?  If so, a 1933 engine should have a shaft driven magneto fitted near the base of the engine, rather than a chain driven magneto fitted higher up between the starting handle hole and the fuel tank.  A mid 1933 engine wouldn't have a fuel tank strapped directly to the cylinder head either, as information given in David Edgington's book 'The Lister D Story 1926 - 1964' indicates that type of tank fitting didn't come in until around November 1933.  

Can you tell me what the casting number is on the cylinder head is please?  It's the number above the exhaust below the LISTER lettering - I can't read it properly on your photo. That might help indicate roughly how old at least that part of the engine is.  

If the above is correct, it could be the engine has received some new (or recycled) parts during its working life, or it's a later engine that's gained an earlier crankcase door and serial number/spec plate and crankcase breather lid.  A bit more detective work will probably indicate which is more likely.  

What condition is the flywheel face (the place where the tread would be if it was a tyre) in?  Lister used to stamp the engine serial number on the flywheel face as well as on the spec plate, and if it's not too rusty (and hasn't been skimmed or sanded away) it might be possible that it can be found and read.  

Talking of restoration, I can suggest this book as it covers a full strip down and rebuild, and for £9 it will probably make a good read if you're bored during 'lockdown'.  https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-D-Stationary-Engine-Restoration-Book-Lister-D-Engine-Rebuild-Guide.html  

I hope the above is useful, and look forward to hearing from you with that cylinder head part number.  

The cylinder head casting is No 1062, the engine appears to be a Bitza.

Maryalice

Hi yes it is 1062 , the flywheel has at some point been painted and I can see no numbers, shame it seems I’ve waisted my money but I didn’t buy to sell it anyway, still nice in the corner of my garage,
ALister your comment on the mag got cut short,
Thanks all
Sam

[quote="Sambuettner"]Hi yes it is 1062 , the flywheel has at some point been painted and I can see no numbers, shame it seems I’ve waisted my money but I didn’t buy to sell it anyway, still nice in the corner of my garage,
ALister your comment on the mag got cut short,
Thanks all
Sam[/quote]

Wouldn't worry too much Sam, it might be a "bitsa" in some peoples eyes and unless you are a "rivit counter" type then don't let it bother you, it's a D, it's yours you go enjoy it.

I agree with Villiers, even if it's not original (and how many 80 year old engines are entirely original? - most have had at least something replaced, even if it's only the spark plug!) it shouldn't reduce the enjoyment and fun of ownership, so don't worry too much about it, it's part of that engine's history!

Apparently the 'D 1062' head was introduced around mid-1938, but in early July 1939 the casting number was changed to 1-1602, and it stayed that way until the end of production in the mid 1960s.  So if yours says 1-1602 then the head could date from anytime between 1939 and 1964.  

The Lucas SR1 Magneto was fitted to Lister Ds from around the mid-1950s onwards, and replaced the Lucas RS1 magneto that was used from around 1937 onwards.  Either the SR1 or the RS1 magneto should fit your engine.... However, before you think of buying a replacement second-hand magneto, do bear in mind that the coil on that may well be dud too!    Also, remember your engine is a reverse rotation one too, so you'd need a reverse rotation mag too... In fact, that's one of the things I'd check, has someone fitted a standard rotation mag to it?    

Time hasn't been kind to magneto coils of the type fitted to RS1 and SR1 magnetos.  The resin coating on the wrapping tends to break down, then the copper wire starts to corrode and can break.  This causes the coil to go 'open circuit'.  There might still be a nice big healthy-looking spark at that stage... but it's got to jump the break in the copper wire, which gradually makes the gap bigger and (before it finally packs up altogether) this often causes the engine to stop running after a short while.  The engine may restart and run a bit longer when it cools down, but the period of running will usually get less and less as the coil deteriorates.

So, as a rough rule of thumb, if it's an RS1 or SR1 magneto with the original coil then the coil will either be dud or it should be regarded as living on borrowed time!    

The good news is that rewound coils are available (usually on an exchange basis), the bad news is they're not cheap!  If you don't get any joy fitting a new condenser and gently cleaning all the contacts and making sure any insulation washers on the points are in the right place, and the spark isn't arcing out onto the steel front cover on the SR1, then it could well be the coil.    

If it does turn out to be the coil, I've been out of the stationary engine world for the last 5 years, so don't know the best place to get a replacement these days.  Perhaps one of the regulars on here could recommend a quality and reliable rewinding service?  I've got a D with an RS1 mag that could do with a new one!    

Hope this is useful, if any of the regulars spot any mistakes or errors in the above then please let me know!  

Check that it is a correct reverse rotation mag,the check that the mag has a good earth to its bracket,from the photo there are shims under the mag,these may be rusty,the base of the mag, the the mag bracket and any shims must be bright and shiny. I have seen restored ngines with no spark only to find that the mag bracket has been painted all over ,which insulates the mag.And most important take the advice of others never start an old engine until the crankcase is clean,all moving parts particularly the valves must be checked for free movement,The D can take more punishment than most engines as only the con rod has plain bearings,the ball bearing mains rarely give trouble.

Thanks all for the comments I’ll have another play tomorrow and update

Best of luck Sam, keep us posted.  

Thanks for your help all, stripped the mag off and apart cleaned it all off , threw the shims away and used washers (needs perfecting the chain is a bit slack) , instant spark, fired up first crank! Had a bit of a scare as I thought it was going to take off and wouldn’t stop but after cleaning the needle valve and screwing back in it runs lovely

Well done that man! I'm glad you got it going, there's nothing quite like the sound of a Lister D chugging away to raise your spirits. So what now? A full restoration? Or are you happy with the way things are? Assuming it behaves itself and the mag coil is OK, perhaps something for it to drive next?

I’m happy with the way it is I’ve a little paining to do but that’s all, I have a water pump to drag out the garage and have a look at next

Had a pit of painting and perfecting today to make it look nice and had a look at the water pump I have got, can I have some advice as there is no drive pulley fitted to my lister and the water pump has a 3 rib v pulley fitted, it’s a Coventry climax water pump, what would be your recommendations to run it or is it not suitable?

Got a photo of the pump? Coventry Climax pumps normally were direct drive off the Coventry engine.

Like that! Hell of a big pulley on it. You can either use a flat pulley on the D and run a Vee belt on that or you can get a Vee pulley for it or swap the pump pulley for a flat one and use a flat belt.

I thought Climax pumps of this type were made by Thomas & Son of Worcester ??