First lister D, and first time everything else in old engines.

The carb appears OK to me John, the early ones only had the one screw. The airvalve is obviously wrong as the early carbs had only a short air valve, they were lengthened later so that you could hold them down to richen the mixture for starting. My spec 12 was the first type to have that fitment, along with a float chamber, the three nuts and studs securing the plate should be smaller than the later type as well. Will get those parts sorted this week.

Pete.

Foden wrote:The carb appears OK to me John, the early ones only had the one screw. The airvalve is obviously wrong as the early carbs had only a short air valve, they were lengthened later so that you could hold them down to richen the mixture for starting. My spec 12 was the first type to have that fitment, along with a float chamber, the three nuts and studs securing the plate should be smaller than the later type as well. Will get those parts sorted this week.

Pete.

Hi Pete,

I just came on to say that I had read over the book some more and found out that same info, and thank you.

The brass stem guide is indeed the one that the book shows and it never had the plunger for choking.
I can use the excisting brass tube as I believe it is the proper one.

I'll attempt to screw it down as far as it needs, to be able to manufacture a short adjuster with the small brass nut -which is also there- to make it original again, as the valve itself is also the short one as far as I understand.
Why it was changed we'll never know. Perhaps one thought it was wrong only knowing of the plunger type, or maybe because of scavenging parts and not knowing the original configuration, who knows?

I have to move the age of my engine up once more from mid '27 to late '27 as I saw that the engine in Edgingtons book was a May '27 one and his serial number is lower than mine by 851 Numbers, so mine must be around the end of '27 maybe even up in the '28's. One of these days I will ask and see what exactly is the manufacture date of my engine, as soon as I find out how and where to ask.

I found also that mine has the screw in filler for the oil versus the bolt on type, where I thought there was only the bolt on type and as such mine wouldn't fit one.
I have the older casting which only has the threaded hole with a plug, I still have to read more.
I'm also off looking for a threaded oil filler and a factory greaser for the rocker assy.

I am having fun and am starting to understand a few more things about the "D".

Oh and I found that the butterfly was in the wrong way around facing backward and can't see how it could've run like that, my guess is that the previous owner never did run the engine at all but just sold it on after seeing what shape it was in, but that's conjecture and I'm still happy to have it to bring back to life.

Regards Pete,

John.

Smitty wrote:Well.., I do not feel good about posting these pics already as I do not even have it at home yet, but here she is, I just made the deal yesterday and have to wait till April to pick it up.

It is an International Harvester 1.5-2.5hp LB engine, running well and complete as far as the owner tells me.
I thought it must be a '40's engine, but I noticed the S/N plate was an aluminium one and makes me wonder about the age.

Just thought I'd post the pics as I'm exited to get it and got lucky once more to have an affordable engine that needs loving.



How's this for comparison Stu? yours the same or slightly different?

Regards, John.

Found a pic John, this is my LB.



Stu.

Stu,

That is a nice looking engine as well, you have the breather on yours which the one I am getting doesn't have.
It will be interesting to get my nose into the history of it, but I will wait with that till it is here and indeed mine.
I wonder if the breather was meant for export to dry and dusty places.
On the other hand, there are many of those places right here on the continent and could warrant the addition of one just the same.

Thanks for posting the pic Stu,
John.

Sorry for taking the thread off topic John :offtopic[1]: just thought I'd show you my example. It's strange how engines sometimes have an air filter and some don't, well I say don't there must be some kind of filter on the engine no matter where it was destine for, I think they get took off for one reason or another and get lost or thrown away. Mine has suffered some damage and needs the pipe re-connecting, it also needs an oil feed pipe to the rockers repaired and a few other small jobs.
Looking forward to you getting the engine John and we can discuss it more once you start a new thread for it.

Stu.

stationary stu wrote:Sorry for taking the thread off topic John :offtopic[1]: just thought I'd show you my example. It's strange how engines sometimes have an air filter and some don't, well I say don't there must be some kind of filter on the engine no matter where it was destine for, I think they get took off for one reason or another and get lost or thrown away. Mine has suffered some damage and needs the pipe re-connecting, it also needs an oil feed pipe to the rockers repaired and a few other small jobs.
Looking forward to you getting the engine John and we can discuss it more once you start a new thread for it.

Stu.

Hello Stu,

I don't mind the temporary off subject chat, it keeps me going while I wait to get all of my parts to finish the "D"

Talking about parts being taken off and such.., The "D" I have has no oil filler, and a few other things are missing as well, makes one wonder what happened to them doesn't it?
Yours sounds like it has had a bit of wear through the years and needs some rebuilding here and there.
The one I am getting seems ok and complete but for the air cleaner, and it makes me wonder if it is actually a stock item or an aftermarket add-on.

I had news that my bearings are in for the "D" and I just walked in from the Idaho trip, so I will go to town and collect the bearings in the morning and also inquire about having a new governor worm gear made up.

Things will all work out eventually and the good thing is that I have a lot of patience, I can wait, it will just make the restored engine even more interesting once it is done right.
I had thought that the rebuild would be a fast one as the previous owner had said that it does run.., well it couldn't have for the damage and worn parts.
So I now have a total restore on the go and things have slowed down.., not what I wanted but it's ok.

The IHC should not be too much longer as the weather has turned as of today, it seems to tell you that a new season has arrived, and all the snow and ice is melting away rather quick now.
The owner is in Florida on vacation and will return when the weather is indeed turning to stay.

Thanks for your kind reply,

Cheers, John.

Glad your home safe John, strange we do miss you when your gone it's so quiet

John on my IHC the air filter is all dented and damaged so that could be one reason it's missing due to it getting knocked off.

Good to hear your still thinking about the D and the parts are slowly getting there. Before long you should be able to get your teeth into it and make some good progress.

Stu.

stationary stu wrote:Glad your home safe John, strange we do miss you when your gone it's so quiet

John on my IHC the air filter is all dented and damaged so that could be one reason it's missing due to it getting knocked off.

Good to hear your still thinking about the D and the parts are slowly getting there. Before long you should be able to get your teeth into it and make some good progress.

Stu.

Are you saying I talk too much Stu? lol,

I am not giving up on the "D", It may take a bit but it simply HAS to be revived and shown just because it is there!

I was in a city here in Ontario a few weeks back and saw that someone had put up a Genuine British Spitfire fighter up on display for a parts, surplus and bits store.
It was wonderfully well preserved (restored), and it helps me to make the idea of doing these engines credible, as that bird brought back some memories and the duty to remember the effort and cost invested by many to stop the Hun from running wild!

It is an example of why restoring old iron is important. It keeps the old world somewhat alive in our memories to make a difference to some who would otherwise not know or forget how we got to be here. How we DID make it this far is beyond me in the first place

My little Lister is not a Spitfire, but the idea is the same, the memory and reminders will make one stand still and think for a minute to reflect, and I think that's an important thing.

I'm off to the city in a bit to go and collect my bearings and to see if I can't find a shop which will make up a worm gear for the "D"
Hopefully I can get some things done to bring the Lister closer to re-birth and operating once again.
Pete has so gracefully sent off some bits off to me to see if I can graft together something useful to get my engine back to working condition, Thank you Pete!

I did some post reading last night and found a good reason not to discuss the getting of an engine again before I have it in the future, at least not until it has been brought home.
I am pretty sure that the IHC will come home, but I'd feel fairly dumb if it didn't

Thanks Stu for the comments,
John.

John if you do miss out on the IHC it's just one of those things I'm sure you could soon find another engine to take it's place.

You might have it the best way to do your engine as being away gives you a break from it so your more eager to get back to working on it.

Stu.

John, your Spitfire has given me an idea. I might see about a war-time engine crank-up on (or around) armistice day this year (engines from any of the wars). We have a few in our collection & I'm sure others will as well. & what with it being November, it gives me plenty of time to arrange something. Might be better to do it on the Saturday rather than the Sunday, but that's all in the detail really.

nutgone wrote:John, your Spitfire has given me an idea. I might see about a war-time engine crank-up on (or around) armistice day this year (engines from any of the wars). We have a few in our collection & I'm sure others will as well. & what with it being November, it gives me plenty of time to arrange something. Might be better to do it on the Saturday rather than the Sunday, but that's all in the detail really.

Hi Nut,

I have ideas like that too, but I am always sidetracked by circumstance and a lot of work!
I think you have a wonderful idea with that as there are all kinds of wartime engines and quite a few were used directly in the war effort.

I think it may draw a few more people to see what that's all about. The war still has an attraction for many who were there or the generation right after it.
Good luck with the idea, regards.

Stu, I am already getting the feeling that the IHC may not be there as I think it should be. I went to look up the advert again and it has been removed.
I do not want to call the man on a feeling though, he may well have trusted me and removed it on that basis.
I'll wait till he calls like he said he would up to mid April and if nothing then, I will call him and see.
And if it is gone.., then like you said, there are more!

I am cleaning up the crankshaft bits to prepare for the sleeve replacement and main bearing re-assembly, and that will be the initial start to put Humpty "D" back together again.
Then I still need to fetch a worm or helical gear for the governor shaft, and wait for the bits from Pete.
I am sure I can work with them as nothing can be in as bad a shape as what I have here!, things will speed up from there I'm sure.

In the mean time I am looking at another engine that came to my attention , and that's all I'm going to say for now lol.

John.

John did you get anywhere trying to get the replacement/manufactured worm gear that you need?

John go one whisper, just to me, what engine your after now

Don't give up hope on the IHC he may have removed the ad as he trusted you to go back and get it and he was maybe fed up with others phoning him about it.

Stu.

stationary stu wrote:
Don't give up hope on the IHC he may have removed the ad as he trusted you to go back and get it and he was maybe fed up with others phoning him about it.

Stu.

That's what I thought. If he has done a deal with you, & is a man of his word, then he should pull the ad. I think I would be more worried if he was still advertising it.

nutgone wrote:

stationary stu wrote:
Don't give up hope on the IHC he may have removed the ad as he trusted you to go back and get it and he was maybe fed up with others phoning him about it.

Stu.

That's what I thought. If he has done a deal with you, & is a man of his word, then he should pull the ad. I think I would be more worried if he was still advertising it.

That's encouraging Nut, Thank you.

I've recently been had quite good and for a goodly sum, so have little faith in man at the moment, but as all people of good character , I will bounce back and keep on trusting folks, can't help it.

The good thing is that I have my funding in order again and can go look at some more engine stuff as I need something to keep the edge off while my "D" is recuperating

John.

John your sounding a bit like a junkie wanting his fix how about a B&S or similar to take the edge off, just something small to keep you going.

Stu.

stationary stu wrote:John your sounding a bit like a junkie wanting his fix how about a B&S or similar to take the edge off, just something small to keep you going.

Stu.

Stu,

All the Brigg's are done and up and running, but I do not consider them the same as old staionary iron, they're just fun sometimes and useful and a good engine to be sure.
The latest fix'rupper before the "D" was the 4000 KW B&S genny which is now attached to my panel for backup when the power fairys take a break

My problem is distance.., (and impatience.)
I can go today and get an engine 4 hours away and 4 hours back, but then I need to rush home, wash up pack my gear and go on a new trip, and that's to compacted and rushed only to head right out for West Virginia and that will be 5 days having a new engine waiting for me and not touching it.
I get no rest from that, and it wears me out

But I sit here talking about it, ants in my pants and will most likely get up and go do it in a minute, as this engine is a gem and in good shape and affordable, and time is running out sigh!

So yes, Junkie seems about the right description
I get outright lazy when there is a lag in messing about with stuff and it makes me understand about Nut, how he has the energy to do all of that work is beyond me!! No offense Nut

Anyway..., I am thinking about it very hard, so I may be back tonight with another engine and then have to rush to go to work, and leave the chores for later.

John.

Just don't over do things before you have to go to work John, there's always other engines but not another you.

Stu.

Hello all,

I am home again, and found my package from Foden waiting for me at the post office.

The parts look very usable to me compared to the lumps and bits that lurk in the corner of parts taken out of the "D" engine.

I can do some more work now and that's always good. This weekend may well be a good one if all the things I need to run it are good.
The helical gear is not replaced yet but I am willing to use it to get a few revolutions out of ol' Betsy here.

Things are looking up and it looks like I'm back in the groove for a few days

Stu,
I never had the chance to go and look at the engine I was interestd in, as the man that owns it told me to hold off a few days as there were others coming to have a boo at it.
I have to phone him and see if I can still do that or if it has been sold on.

No fear, There are more out there I am certain

Now for some supper.., back in a bit,

John.

Petes parts look good,

So I got right at it with the cylinder group and laid out the bits and had a good look as to what was going to fit and what wasn't.

The rod was bent quite serious enough so I took some time to straighten that and then pressed the bushes in.
I laid out all the bits that I can use and did some measuring and fitting to see if I had an assembly well enough to use.

As it turns out the combination of mine and Fodens bits worked out very well and with the new bushes in will leave clearances that will work fine.
The piston is perfect fit but a few thou play in the pin/piston area which is acceptable for what it is.
With that said, it's only about a 2-3 thou over on the pin to piston fit, so that will do quite nicely as the fit on the pin to bushing is prefect, I'll use a bit heavier oil to compensate, maybe straight 50 will save the day.

One extra ring is required, so I will order a set and have a few spares so I can have four rings on the replacement piston as it has one more compressor ring than the old one.
The piston is in far better shape than the one that came with the engine and together it all came out very well.



Next is the pressing on of the big end sleeve to the crank and then some re-checking for binding in the assembly.

The splash pin at the bottom of the big end will be made later today but I did reshape the hole on the big end to shrink it so there would be enough material to re-tap the threads for the pin, that worked out well also and it is now a 1/4 20 standard thread so I can make up a new splash pin.



So.., I am now just waiting on the helical gear really, but I could run the engine with the old one just to see it working.
I hope there is no problem with piston compression height, but there shouldn't be any as far as I know.
I'll also have to check for valve and head clearances in the TDC position, but I am sure it will all work out.

The valves will be looked at too as the intake is a bit ratty and the seal face is a bit chewed up I don't think a replacement is available as it is the early "racing" type or schrouded valve that was used for a short period of time.
I may have to turn one up which I'd rather not do, but will if I have to.
If worse comes to worst I can use a modern valve with a bigger face and grind the seat into the chamber edge, it's been done before I think.
Valve guides are on the "gettem" list for ordering tonight along with some governor springs and odds and ends.

It's getting exiting again, and I am also still looking for a second engine to play with, but had no luck sofar. (I'm picky! )
There are two more engines out there, a Fairbanks Morse and a Stover but I rather have the Junior or a Novo like the Junior or a single Lister (6/1?) Diesel.
I do not really like the laydown type engines unless I can get an older oil field service engine, but they are to BIG!

Cheers all, John.

John is there an oil feed to the gudgion pin? (part that holds piston to con rod if you have different name LOL) the reason I ask is if it's splash fed putting the bottom ring on it will starve the bore/gudgion pin of oil. Sorry i'm not up on D piston etc and it's years since I did anything with one, so it could be perfectly ok the way it is.

Stu.

stationary stu wrote:John is there an oil feed to the gudgion pin? (part that holds piston to con rod if you have different name LOL) the reason I ask is if it's splash fed putting the bottom ring on it will starve the bore/gudgion pin of oil. Sorry i'm not up on D piston etc and it's years since I did anything with one, so it could be perfectly ok the way it is.

Stu.

We call them wrist pins here, but I'm easy

All I know Stu is that the original piston had a bottom oil/support ring and that the newer style replacement piston has the same at the bottom. Some replacements have a more modern scraper ring assembly in the form of a three or four part ring, but originally mine did not have that as far as I can tell, it had a bottom ring the same as the compression rings but only three in total.

The replacement piston does have one extra ring below the first two compression rings to total four of them though and Lister added oil dispersal holes below the 3rd ring from the top and the same below the bottom scraper to increase oil flow to the gudgeon pin holes in the piston and to leave more oil at the very bottom of the skirt I think.

I believe that the oil is allowed through and outward from the inside of the piston by way of splashing, to lube the skirt and circulate off leaving more oil for the gudgeon pin holes to soak up and also leave more oil on the bottom of the skirt where I see rust on mine, I have no idea if I that's correct although that makes the most sense.

That leaves a fairly large area on the skirt to collect oil from to lube trhough the pin holes as far as I can tell.
In my opinion, with this newer design there will be more oil present at the gudgeon pin than before just from the collection off the skirt.
On top of that, the splash pin will mist oil onto the rest of the assy from the open bottom, lubricating the pin/center bushing area from below.

Finally, the engine design has not changed significantly to make me wonder if the oil will get to the pin or not, after all, the engine was designed with the oiling system it has at present and they all seem to last wonderfully well.

Whether I am correct or not in all of this thinking is another thing all together :chin: , but that's where the fun is.., trying to figure it all out
I always had my doubts with splash systems to lubricate piston pins, but they have proven to be effective enough to let many engines run for amazingly long times.

As for my engine.., I will inspect often during the first few hours of running just to make sure nothing produces dry scoring of the pin, bushes or skirt.
It will be a bother to take the head off a few more times but it will pay off in the long run, no pun intended and that's where I am glad there is some wear to the pin itself as it will make lubrication easier to happen.( The means justifying the end? )

Good questions Stu, keeping me thinking

Regards, John.

Hi all,

I managed to get the sleeve pressed onto the crank end, and that went well. I did the clearance checks and it is the way it should be so one more thing done and ready.

The brain's always working overtime when fitting things, and I thought of what to work on next.
I put the head on the table and inspected that more closely and found no problems with it, but the intake valve which is the old recessed (shrouded) type, doesn't seem right.
Oh well clean it up and dress the faces and see right?

Now that I have done that and machined off a bit of the face of the valve, I find out that the valve is not one of the lister kind and doesn't even fit past the shroud affair at all!

Lucky part is that it's a 16th too big on the large diameter and about 3/32nds too thick in head thickness. so I have a badly worn but re-doable valve (it's cast iron so no hardness to worry about) and can cut it to fit the best fit I can give it precisely to fit the head

The stem is the same as the exhaust one so that's not a problem, and now I understand why the stem end has been mutilated into submission to hold a round pin as a retainer. I'll have to accomodate any shortening of the stem accordingly.
There IS a GOD and he just gave me a good excuse and a valve to machine up to fit the parameters of the"D"
I believe the face angle is about 35deg. but I will check that out.

The valve will be next on the list as that's the only thing I could not source and I would have had to search for a valve similar to this one for a while longer.
Someone surely had the thought to use a valve that would do the job but must have gave up.

After that I think my only real problem left at the moment is the helical gear, and I'm still looking to have one made, but after assembly I can run the engine if carefully controlled.

That said, I have a few things to clear up other than the engine and I may not get to do that this weekend, but I'm on it right now and want to see it run so I may get it done this weekend.

So next is the valve machining and then on to the bearing grease and fit on the crank and then assembly, then the timing gears and stuff and then it's try out time yey

That's all folks, John.

Sounds like your Doing well .

Regarding the helicoil gear i can surply you with a later one that should fit . I need a new shaft and i have been offered a complete guvnor so im taking it as its complete so i will have a spare gear .

I can post it to you for the price of the postage ???

Matt

matt86 wrote:Sounds like your Doing well .

Regarding the helicoil gear i can surply you with a later one that should fit . I need a new shaft and i have been offered a complete guvnor so im taking it as its complete so i will have a spare gear .

I can post it to you for the price of the postage ???

Matt

Hi Matt,

Thanks for offering, and I sent you a PM.

John.

Matt,

Also I'm thinking if you have a set of guvnr weights with pins, pivots and spring grommets after you buy the new one, I'd be happy to relieve you of those for a sum of course.
You get your bits and can salvage some of the cost. :angel1:

Gotta get it while I can

Regards, John.