Villiers Midget only runs for a few seconds..

HI all and HELP!!!
This problem is driving me mad...My little Villiers Midget is not wanting to run...I have loads of fuel getting to the carb..I have a nice crisp sparkat the plug (a new plug) but yet it starts easy with full throttle and with full choke.It will only keep running if you tickle the carb as it runs...i have been tweaking the ignition timing but it does not make any odds...what do we think?...any help would be good thanks lee...

sounds like a fuel starvation problem
so see that the fuel tap filter is clean if still there
take the pipe off and see if its clear of any sort of crap ie old tap cork floating around in there ect as this does/can stop the fuel flow when running
then carb ilets ect are all clean , float chamber ect ect
then if still a issue see that the float needle is not set to close of fuel to soon ,this can also cause short running spells after manual flooding with the tickler
try this and see if this sorts it or inproves it
kev

Defently fuel starvation i would say . Fuel has solidefied in carb and dirt . debris in the fuel system seem to be favrable .

matt

matt86 wrote:Defently fuel starvation i would say . Fuel has solidefied in carb and dirt . debris in the fuel system seem to be favrable .

matt

:english: This is how it should read

Defiantly fuel starvation i would say . Fuel has solidified in carb and dirt . debris in the fuel system seem to be favourable .

Matt

:stick lol: :stick lol: :stick lol:

Stu.

Hi all and thanks for your input...there is no fuel tap as i took it out and gave it a direct feed from the tank..the carb has been cleaned right through..i will check the float level to make sure there is the right amount of fuel in the bowl...i have also checked the throttle slide and it is getting full throttle and is also shutting correct..I dont think it is any thing to drastic as it would not run if it was compression or crank case seals..would it??...

spelling not my strong point stu

matt

Check your inlet valve clearance too, if its too tight and not seating right you wont be getting enough suck.....phnauu phnauu

But does sound like starvation

Janner

janner wrote:Check your inlet valve clearance too, if its too tight and not seating right you wont be getting enough suck.....phnauu phnauu

But does sound like starvation

Janner

He might struggle with that mate, the midget is a two stroke engine

Biggusdannus wrote:

janner wrote:Check your inlet valve clearance too, if its too tight and not seating right you wont be getting enough suck.....phnauu phnauu

But does sound like starvation

Janner

He might struggle with that mate, the midget is a two stroke engine

OOPSA !!!!!!

What about carbon build up blocking the ports, I know the Stuart's has this problem. Maybe worth a little look.

Stu.

(not worked on one so excuse me if my idea is stupid LOL)

does the fuel line have a non return valve? does sound like a fuel / mix problem.

The engine is a Two stroke I have not had the engine apart so don't know if there is a build up of carbon...there is no tap or valve fitted in the fuel line yet it has a direct feed from the tank with fresh fuel and it is flowing well to the carb...i have not yet checked the float level so fingers crossed that is it..If it was a compression issue or crank case seal's would it run??..Thanks again for the input lee...

it doesnt take much at all for the carb to stop working as it should do ,a speech of grit in a gallary or the jets needles, is enough to stop them working as they should.
is there a drain plug in the bottom end of the jap 2strokes ,like on the villiers ones ,as mine would run and stop again until i drained the sump "so to speach"
once emptyed of of very small amount of fuel and oil ,one swing and they sing again,since learned turn off the tap and wait ages for the fuel in pipe and carb to be burned off and then while there fighting for fuel they clear out the sump/fuel air mixing section, and no oily plug to clean to get them going again
kev

Hi Kev thanks for the post...I will have a look to see if there is a sump drain on the Villiers midget...going to look now(in the rain) thats how keen i am to see this engine run

It does have a drain... I have drained off a very small amount of petrol/oil out of it so going for a test tonight after work so fingers crossed ....

You shouldn't ever stop a 2 stroke by starving it of fuel! It will also starve it of oil.

If the crank case is filling up then there is a problem with the carb (but then most carbs are knackered on these old engines anyway).

Check your needle in the throttle slide, it might have dropped (these should have a slide throttle with a needle in the middle, like the old bike carbs), but it sounds to me like something in the carb hasn't gone back quite right.

Also, pull the barrel off (barrel & head in one on these) & check your ports. The exhaust ports may well be blocked up by now (I've had that on a few of my 2 strokes).

When it's running it a stop switch or earthing strip to the spark plug. Throttle it right down as you stop the spark, but try not to stop it by starving it of fuel, as you risk doing damage over time. (these don't have proper seals on the crank shaft, they rely on plain bronze bushes to do the job of bearings & seals, they need a film of oil to do both jobs properly, a little wear & she'll still run fine).

Thanks all this info is very helpful...I did not get out to see if the crank case drain did the trick...but i think i will go back to the beginning and double check every thing again..like point gap/timing ect ...i am going to clean and check float level of the carb as well..if this does not work then the head will come of to see if there is carbon build up...will let you know how i get on...thanks again lee...

I you have a test meter it would be worth testing the magneto coil. I know you say you have a spark, but it's always good to know if the coil is OK. I doubt it's at fault with the problems you are having here, as it really does sound like fuel problems.

nutgone
please explain ???
when you run it out of fuel ,you run it out of oil ????
the oil is in the fuel so no fuel no fire , so when is it out of oil ????????????????
when its stopped ???? the oil is still clinging to the engine parts as the engine stops and also when it restarted the oil is still there
when the fuel enters the engine it is already being vapourized buy the heat from the casting piston ect ect so then most of the oil vapour is already solidified to the moving parts as its on its way to the top of engine for the combustion ,the remains of the 2 stroke ignits slower than the fuel so is blown to the sides and lubes the top end above the piston, the remains is blown out through the exhurst system.
leave 2 stroke mixture in a can for a while and then you have the oil stuck at the bottom of the can as it all starts to cling together again and become heaver than the petrol , and its even faster seperating in the summer heat

why did villiers fit a sump oil drain plug to there 2 strokes if theres no oil in there to drain out then???
kev

heres a video ive just utubed for you nutgone
just to see if i was wrong or not

kev

I thought it was quite well known that it's not good to starve 2-stroke engines of fuel in order to stop them??? I guess not. It's one of those things which is considered "Bad Practise", not like it should never be done, just not a good habit to get into.

But, it certainly is the case, I can assure you, I've been told not to do it quite a few times by quite a few different old boys. A 2-stroke will carry on running for quite a while after the fuel is removed, & it is burning the remains of it's oil from the bottom end, & around the barrel etc etc in order to do this.

I've even started a 2 stroke after removing the carb in the past, & yes it ran (don't try it, it will run REALLY fast with no throttle control whatsoever, quite scary actually).

A 2 stroke gets it's oil supply from it's fuel, so it figures that when it runs out of fuel, it also runs out of it's supply of new oil. Sure, there will be some residue in there, but the engine will burn this off over time if you keep stopping it in the incorrect manner. Also, with the older engines, with metal-to-metal seals it will pull in the film of oil & not only cause wear but give you trouble starting next time.

If the crank case is filling up with fuel, there's something wrong somewhere (usually a knackered carb).

The more modern engines, with roller bearings & garter seals aren't such a problem.

Then you've got companies like Stuart Turner, who say it's best to switch the fuel off & let the engine run, but that's mainly to do with emptying the carb in a boat that is likely to be left standing for a long time, & let's face it, Stuart Turner weren't very good engineers in many ways, they even made their earlier engines so you couldn't stagger the piston ring gaps That's probably why they're such buggers to start now, because they were constantly starved of fuel in order to stop them, I expect many of them have worn seals now.

No, it's one of those things I've always been told, don't let them run out of fuel, if at all possible. It's not good for them.

The sump plug is mainly for trouble starting. After several goes, if it doesn't fire, there will be excess fuel mixture in the bottom, which will mean the engine is (quite literally) flooded & won't start (which also isn't good for the seals & bearings, as the petrol can actually wash the oil film off & the oil film takes time to build up again, so it's not good to flood old 2 strokes too much). Also, the older engines tended to collect oil & condensation in the bottom from all the impurities in the fuel & oils available at the time, & any liquid in the bottom can cause starting problems (as can any condensation in the exhaust).

Modern 2-stroke oils shouldn't separate too badly, & there's no excuse for using engine oil in 2-stroke mixes these days. The old mixtures were too oil-rich anyway, with modern oils you can often halve the stated dose (16:1 becomes 25:1 or 30:1, 25:1 becomes 50:1, 50:1 should probably stay at 50:1 though, as that's quite a lean mix to start with).

My Tarpen quite often needs the bottom end emptying, because the carb's knackered, but it is pre-war, so it's entitled to be a little incontinent. If there's no way to stop a 2 stroke via the ignition then it should be choked or throttled down.

the oil in a 2 stroke is designed to stop were its needed,and if an engine running out of fuel can suck the condensed oil from the sump ,
as it would do it as its running also ,so there for it wouldnt last very long at all ,
as it is put in simple terms in the video above and my above post
the oil is designed to mostly settle in the lower end as the fuel vapourised and the "well read my above post" its all in there
modern engines have a on /off electric switch ,as the 2 stroke mixture is so week to start with ,so less chance of plug fouling and oil build up in the complete engine system
this is the end of topic from me ,as 4 yrs in engineering collage and 20yrs repairing all sized engines ect , i know what i know from the books and experiance ,"not the grape vine "
are you sure your carbs as bad as you say ,or is it just unburnt fuel from the "stopping process " :chin:
catch you later
kev

the oil in a 2 stroke is designed to stop were its needed,and if an engine running out of fuel can suck the condensed oil from the sump ,
as it would do it as its running also ,so there for it wouldnt last very long at all ,

Kev, think about it, this doesn't make sense. Of course it sucks up the oil, that's why it smokes, but it is running while it's doing this, so fresh oil is being supplied to the bearings all the time, it is an oil supply, not just a deposit. If the oil didn't move about & refresh itself it would gum up with the heat & exhaust gasses.
If this statement were true then you would only need to mix oil in the first time you run it, then just use neat petrol the rest of the time.

It's quite well known Kev, makes perfect sense to me. & I'm an engineer, as were most of those who told me.

Like I said, I don't think it matters now & again. I thought about it & it makes sense. These old engines need that oil film to seal & lubricate the shaft, so anything that could remove that isn't such a good thing.

Anyway, it's not a big deal, just passing on some info I've learned over the years.

We're all still learning in this game, I'm always open to learning new things anyway.

Thanks guy's for the input and chat about 2 stroke's...I also have 28 years in engineering fixing things from 2 stroke engines to road sweepers..This is why this is driving me mad It should be so simple to fix.But i find some times it is good to chat about things as the most basic fault can be looking right at you..(or is that just me ) But back to the Villiers..The spark was very weak and being i tight git i did not want to pay the £50.00 odd pounds to sort it so i have put a new condenser in and used a 12volt coil with battery i have wired up my own ignition circuit and only used the original points..this has given me a cracking spark at the new plug..But like i said in a earlier post i am going to re check every thing again just to be sure....

leepaulholtz wrote:Thanks guy's for the input and chat about 2 stroke's...I also have 28 years in engineering fixing things from 2 stroke engines to road sweepers..This is why this is driving me mad It should be so simple to fix.But i find some times it is good to chat about things as the most basic fault can be looking right at you..(or is that just me ) But back to the Villiers..The spark was very weak and being i tight git i did not want to pay the £50.00 odd pounds to sort it so i have put a new condenser in and used a 12volt coil with battery i have wired up my own ignition circuit and only used the original points..this has given me a cracking spark at the new plug..But like i said in a earlier post i am going to re check every thing again just to be sure....

Sounds like you've got everything pretty much covered. The weak point on these engines is by far the magneto coil. There is a way to use a 6v or 12v car/motorbike coil without a battery, I wrote a sort-of "how to" thread on it some time ago. It involves winding your own small ignition coil around the core of the original magneto coil, which then goes into the circuit in place of the battery, like a kind of charging coil which gives the 12v (or 6v) coil a kick every time it's needed. (that's the simplest way I can explain it).

I will see if I can find it for you, as it could mean you not having to lug a battery around & remembering to charge it up (unless of course you make it so the engine charges the battery via a dynamo/alternator, then you've just got to lug it about).