Petter M rebuild

Pic is my lad Jack helping me with the rebuild of my late father's engine which has been in pieces for about 30 years. We're both learning lots and making a few mistakes along the way. We're short of one of the calibrator oil pump plungers and both governor weights if anyone has these hanging about?

Nice "New Model" with an extended air box, was it off a cement mixer?
I'm guessing it's a 1.5hp?

See my post in the 'new members' thread.

Pete.

Extended air box, we had no idea. Sadly I don't know where my father picked it up from, one of the flywheels has a deep groove for a vee belt in it which may be a clue.

Yes 1 1/2hp although the brass engine plate has been lost.

Hi, Nice project.... Is it hopper or tank cooled ? If hopper cooled, what shape is the hopper ?
If the plate is missing you will still find the engine number on a couple of locations....end of the crankshaft, end of the flywheel keys, flywheel rim opposite keyway. If you have this please post it up and I will have a look on the Internal Fire site which has the full original factory records for M types. Might be able to track it down and confirm the original buyer and supply date. Governor weights should be relatively easy to find, the plunger can probably be machined up, assuming you have the pump body of the calibrator ?
Regards Dave

I'll have a look on those places for numbers. Sounds like the plate may still be in the family ill have to ask my cousin if he's got it tucked away.
Yes got the pump body and the plunger with the horse shoe shape on the end, need the plain one with a flat head on. If I can be sure that they are the same length when assembled I can make one, does anyone happen to know?
Rugby ball shaped cylinder.

Hopefully the numbers will give a clue via the records. Sounds like you have an Acorn top engine with a calibrator which is a little unusual. I don't know the exact detail but I think a few of the early new model engines were fitted with Acorn tops before moving on to the separate cylinder barrel and either tank or hopper cooled heads. The serial will be the clue. Not sure on the plunger detail am afraid but Internal Fire also have scanned drawings of parts so the information might be available on IF.

Jonacol wrote:I'll have a look on those places for numbers. Sounds like the plate may still be in the family ill have to ask my cousin if he's got it tucked away.
Yes got the pump body and the plunger with the horse shoe shape on the end, need the plain one with a flat head on. If I can be sure that they are the same length when assembled I can make one, does anyone happen to know?
Rugby ball shaped cylinder.

Nigel had nothing left at all Jonathan, to him they were all just scrap metal anyway! Graham hadn't had the Petter at home for several years, at least two club members had the boxes of parts to try and sort out but to be fair none of them were really interested in doing it anyway as Graham (bless him!) would usually sell whatever they had spent time restoring for him! There was nothing left in the shed as we dismantled it for a family member. Graham had a habit of dismantling everything when he aquired it and then leaving them in pieces for years, he did the same with that Petter. I found half a Stuart water pump, half of a Lister pump but never found the other pieces of the pumps so where they went I haven't a clue as they were both complete when he bought them?. There was a tin of Lister D parts, but among them were pieces of a Landmaster rotovator as well! Alan should still have the plate though, I will ask him at the weekend and get back to you.

Pete.

You are very kind Pete. My son, also a Jack, is very keen on old stuff. We rebuilt a classic mini.over four years and he's leading on the petter. They are a great way to learn about engineering, we're currently arguing about whether to repaint it!

Jonacol wrote:.....we're currently arguing about whether to repaint it!

Oily rag gets my vote.

Jonacol wrote:You are very kind Pete. My son, also a Jack, is very keen on old stuff. We rebuilt a classic mini.over four years and he's leading on the petter. They are a great way to learn about engineering, we're currently arguing about whether to repaint it!

Looking at that pic of the engine I would leave the paint and when the engine is finished give it a coating of boiled linseed oil which will enhance that original paintwork. Now something in the back of my mind tells me that the engine came from off of a vessel at the docks in your area, I remember Graham mentioning it many years ago. What it was used for on a boat I have no idea, it wouldn't be powerful enough to power the anchor etc. I will ask around our club members as I'm sure that I wasn't the only one who he told.

Pete.

+1 for oily rag paintwork looks decent ! A pic of the whole engine would be good - you mentioned it has a grooved flywheel which suggests a V belt for some sort of special application. The records should confirm when the serial is provided. Cheers

Pete,
Having spoken to my sister yesterday she remembers someing about this coming from our small local harbour, Porthclais. I think this is beginning to make sense.i wonder whether the V grooved flywheel was used to drive a gearbox or propellor shaft actually in a boat, flywheel diameter giving higher gearing. The engine had a missing exhaust silencer which dad replaced with a newly cast one. If the engine was in a boat usual practice would be to route the exhaust out to just under the waterline so it's quieter, perhaps that's why the silencer was missing.

Some pics from this evening in the shed. I've failed locate any stamped numbers on flywheels or crank, the wheels have been heavily painted so I may have missed them.

A couple of questions for petter fans.
Thin tin plate behind a one way valve on the fuel line. I assume this is acting as a diaphragm and pulsing fuel up the pipe, I think we've got the one way Vale the correct way up.?
Governor linkage onto the sliding sleeve, looks like it's missing some sort of follower, maybe a semi circle which fits in that groove?
Apols for all the questions

Looks like the right way up for the pump, also check the foot valve ball in the tank is free. There should be a semi circular shoe as you say which acts on the governor sleeve, often badly worn if you get offered a second-hand item. I think the piston is fitted the wrong way round from memory, slope should be to the exhaust port side.  
Hopefully the numbers will turn up, flywheel rim opposite the keyway, often also marked 1 and 2.  Keep the questions coming as required,  cheers Dave

Ah thanks fir heads up on the piston, we were guessing.
Re foot valve is that on the end of the fuel pick up pipe?

Jonacol wrote:
Apols for all the questions

No apologies required. Finding answers and sharing knowledge is what this forum is all about.

Jonacol wrote:Ah thanks fir heads up on the piston, we were guessing.
Re foot valve is that on the end of the fuel pick up pipe?

No probs....it might run with the piston like that but certainly not well!
Yes, the foot valve is at the end of the pipe that connects to the diaphragm pump.  Often they are clogged with debris, a good clean with carb cleaner should get the ball moving again.  I haven't ever had to fully dismantle and re-seat these, however the ball behind the carb nozzle can sometimes need re-seating.  Best idea is to get all the balls free and try the engine, if you have problems you can then eliminate one at a time.  

The cutaway photo confirms the piston set up.  This is a cutaway engine at the Scottish Museum of Rural Life...
IMGP0320 by Stationary Engines Scotland, on Flickr" />

The distance between the atomiser and piston is quite crucial, don't have those details to hand but will try to find it for you.  Also, same for the air reed valve opening at the back of the engine, needs to be set to a certain distance.
Will update when I find the information. Cheers Dave

That's really really useful thanks Dave much appreciated.
With the help of younger eyes we've now found the number on one of the flywheels, 9274 so a little more progress.

Ok....I have had a quick look on IF and found the records for 9274 surprisingly quickly.  I have asked for these to be indexed in due course and if you sign up to IF you should be able to search for these yourself.  In summary, 9274 appears to be one of a batch of 5 ordered for the Sudan Government, despatched 28/7/1931.  The batch included 9274 - 9276.  Luckily the test sheet for 9274 is the only one in the archive of the batch present which shows it was tested 22/7/1931.  It makes mention of a special 'pulley flywheel' and the air filter.  There is also mention of a baseplate but nothing that I could see on what it was being supplied to drive.  The next mystery is how it ended back in the UK if it went to Sudan....  I am hoping the archivist (Roland Craven) will uncover a few more clues when he indexes the files.  
I have added the rest of the cutaway photos which you should hopefully get here.....
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmK96JUC
Cheers Dave

Gosh that's a turn up for the books. Thank you so much for looking that up. I've made a donation to IF but struggled with the subscription bit probably due to my IT skills.
Hmm I wonder what it could have been driving? I'm guessing a flywheel drive gave higher belt speeds at the expense of torque.

Interesting bit of history.  If you are struggling with getting registered, drop Paul Evans an email.  He is incredibly busy and may not immediately respond.
As for what it drove originally, could be all manner of things.  Most of the gen sets were belt drive off the flywheel but usually flat belt.  A vee groove often suggests something requiring greater torque transmission without belt slip so could be something like a centrifugal pump, fan blower, winch, vacuum pump etc etc.
Roland has kindly got back to me and will index the files in due course (busy time as you will appreciate at the moment)....further clues may be revealed then.  He has reminded me of the following settings for the 1.5 engines:-
Air reed valve stop gap - 1/8", possibly reduced to 1/16" for light running
Atomiser to piston clearance - 1/16"
Magneto timing - Advance BTDC measured on flywheel rim - 3 1/2 - 3 3/4", points just opening.
Points gap - 0.012 -0.015"

Cheers Dave