possible first project but which one?

hello guys

so iv been looking at the engines and it seems really theres 2 main ones to choose from with the less seen ones as well

now main ones are the lister D (and petter models)

wolseley (WD1)


and the less seen iv noticed being the jap


now i would say im fairly beginner in this field. im "ok" at car engines ect but id like a almost beginner engine to "sink my teeth into"

now my mate has a lister d engine (it was made before it should of (1914/16 i think) as a prototype for a university) according to the history we could find, and i see lister Ds are the most common, but we dont want to mess up such a unique engine untill we got experience.

iv found a nice WD1 at a good price its apparently "working" i havent seen it yet and theres a few things that might need doing but im happy to do it, but is the WD1 a nice machine to start off at? and is there any niggles i need to be aware of before i buy the machine?

thanks guys for any help at all in advance:)

Gaz

The Wolseley WD range of engines are a very good range to start off with.

I'm not too sure about the Lister, maybe do that one after. Sounds interesting though, but they are slightly more complicated than the WD engines.

The Wolseley's are lovely engines though, very smooth running. I would say they are a nicer engine than the Lister D, in my opinion. I reckon the D's are generally rougher running, the Wolseley's are much smoother & quieter, & there's less of them about. I saw a few at the rally I attended last weekend, & you couldn't hear them running at all. They are also easier to start (impulse mag & no carb adjustment), but not by much.

Something really simple would be air cooled, possibly a big JAP or a Petter A1.

Keep us informed anyway, whatever you decide.

I think nuts has covered everything there LOL. People starting out tend to go for the Lister D but the WD is an easier engine to work on, but there's more books etc on restoring a D. With the D being the most popular engine about parts are an easy item to pick up and most spares are a reasonable price where as the WD wasn't built in the same numbers so spares are a little harder to find and a little more expensive. Value of the 2 engines is strange with a well turned out D commanding a bigger selling value. There's also the Ruston PT which is very similar in build to the WD except for some stupid reason the PT is just a tad hard to set up but once running it;s a perfect engine, smooth and quiet, very well engineered.
So that's your basic choice on water cooled it has to be you that makes the final decision but with a bit of knowledge that you have I think your best going for the D.
The other engines are good engines for beginners with the Petter A1 being a cheap engine to buy and a good supply of secondhand parts. Now the crunch, if your thinking about showing your engine at a rally, some events won't take air cooled engines or maybe only take one or 2, (I'll explain the reason in a minute.) You could always start with a small engine, a JAP, Villiers, BSA you get what I mean. After all there still an engine just smaller and can still be a challenge to restore.
Just to fill you in on the air cooled engine at a rally, well basically what one of the problems is the weekend camper that attend shows with a small engine just to get free entry to the event. It happens all the time with some engines at shows are never started all weekend so it shows why there at the event, a free pass. Also if you get 2 many small engines together they can make a bit of noise so they try to keep it to a reasonable level.

Hope this helps, anything else you want to know just ask.

Stu.

garethmob wrote:
now my mate has a lister d engine (it was made before it should of (1914/16 i think) as a prototype for a university) according to the history we could find, and i see lister Ds are the most common, but we dont want to mess up such a unique engine untill we got experience.

iv found a nice WD1 at a good price its apparently "working" i havent seen it yet and theres a few things that might need doing but im happy to do it, but is the WD1 a nice machine to start off at? and is there any niggles i need to be aware of before i buy the machine?

Gaz

Firstly any pictures of your mates D type please? and is there a brass plate with a serial number on it? The earliest D types were 1926 so not quite as old.

Well I'm going to contradict the others and say go for a D type. Basically bullet proof engineering (they didn't make nearly 1/4 million of them for nothing) The bottom end is over engineered with large ball race mains (can be rumbly if left dry for too long) The carb is relatively easy to understand and having an adjustable mixture jet means you get the fuelling spot on. Overhead valve design is far more efficient than a side valve (Wolseley/Ruston) Yes they are noisier but that's down to the silencer and having a magneto chain. Biggest bugbear above the rumbly mains is bore wear which is often worse than a PT/WD. The Ruston/Wolseley engines have whitemetal/bronze mains, which if they have been run short of oil can be worn and will leak oil. Expensive to repair. Ruston engines seem to have a propensity to break mag intermediate gears so another thing to look out for. Basically any engine you are potentially going to buy run these checks over it. 1, try to lift the flywheel up and down, if it moves more than just a little the mains are knackered, avoid! 2, Turn the engine over by hand carefully and listen for hissing noises which may suggest worn bore or leaking valves. Both can be repaired by new rings or grinding in valves, worst case scenario is replacement valves and re-cutting seats. Be careful if your turning a wolseley or a ruston fitted with a wico or some Lucas SR magneto, it has an impulse device which will emit a loud click as you turn the engine over compression. If there is any fuel in the cylinder it will fire! so keep your fingers clear of anything they could get trapped by. 3, Check the spark. Remove the lead off the spark plug, possibly even take the plug out and hold the lead near a piece of bright metal, preferably away form the carburettor and petrol! you want about 4mm gap, turn the engine over and see if a spark occurs. If its a D type you will have to turn the engine quite fast to get a spark. If it has a plug cap you may not be able to do this test in which case remove the spark plug and fit that in the cap first. The spark should be bright and blue, if its weak and/or orange then there are problems with the magneto. This may not fail you straight away but could lead to problems in the future and an expensive repair bill! 4, Look over the exterior of the engine carefully, are there extensive oil patches on the outside to suggest leaking gaskets (oil on the inside of the flywheel suggest at least a failed crankshaft seal but could also be from worn mains) anything broken, bodged up or missing? Finally remember you reap what you sow. If your looking at an engine for £20 don't expect it to be Rolls Royce but if paying a lot £200 or more play plenty of attention! Caveat Emptor = Buyer Beware

Hope this helps.

Agree with pretty much all that except....

A lot of bad spark problems can be remedied by a mag service, rather than an expensive repair (basically, take it apart, clean it up, change the condenser), but it's always a gamble. I would say, out of the engines I have restored, 50% of the ones which didn't spark just needed cleaning up & a new condenser.

If it's a common mag then spares can be found relatively cheap, but as these mags get older, the coils are all slowly giving up, so expect spares to become scarcer as time goes on. I would always recommend a new condenser, weather you have a good spark or not. If the condenser is old, it WILL be showing signs of internal breakdown, guaranteed. Especially if it is a flywheel mag & you have the flywheel off at any point, ALWAYS replace the condenser. They tend to get left as it's a pain getting it apart.

I would still prefer a Wolseley or Ruston to a D type (have had both over the years), but mainly because there are too many D Types at the rallies round here & some shows are limiting their numbers. D's are nice engines, nothing wrong with them, just too many about.

Really though, I think you should have one of each , Let's face it, if you are getting into stationary engines, you'll be wanting a collection.
(You can't have just one engine, it will get lonely on it's own, that's when they give you trouble, when they get lonely).

stationary stu wrote:
Just to fill you in on the air cooled engine at a rally, well basically what one of the problems is the weekend camper that attend shows with a small engine just to get free entry to the event. It happens all the time with some engines at shows are never started all weekend so it shows why there at the event, a free pass. Also if you get 2 many small engines together they can make a bit of noise so they try to keep it to a reasonable level.

Hope this helps, anything else you want to know just ask.

Stu.

Yes, and no, air cooled is too loose a term, the A1 is a bloody heavy air cooled and not a little buzz bomb lol, and yes you get people taking little Villiers, japs stuart's etc just to get in and they hardly get run. BUT I have also seen several Amanco's etc not run once for a whole rally with nobody to be seen, plus one thing that got my goat at Abbey hill was I nearly had to haggle for enough space for my display of 3 engines plus extras, yet there was a group almost opposite that had 2 engines, 5 tents, 5 couples + several children between them, one of the engines was a wd1

Bottom line, find an engine YOU like, big or small, enjoy it, learn from it and share it! There will always be help here regardless of size make or model. If you wish to go to a rally run it and be willing to talk about it I will say that at the moment its hard for me to run more than 4-5 hours a day because I take my 4 year old and keeping him sat around too long at a time is stressful lol, I usualy run 2 hrs in the morning then whip off for an hour come back start them back up and run another 2 hrs then whip off again for a bit before close.

hello guys, for some reason didnt get the email to say there had been a reply so i will try my best here!


sadly i havent got a photo of his lister currently, but i will try my best to get one as soon as i can

the serial number is 0300 on the brass plate. it does look like a lister d (says lister d on it)

thanks for all the advice guys its really appreciative.

im lucky where i live currently as my next door neighbour runs a mechanics garage (the father of my mate with the D) so i can borrow any tools and do it up (and will most likely do it in the garage any way)

iv always been interested in these little engines (old tractors cars ect) but i never saw the price being so low (i never really looked to be honest)

unfortunatly the person sold the WD so still looking. came across a guy selling a VILLIERS (it looks like a MK12) but not too sure.
it dosent look like a fuel tank comes with it, is the fireing the same as a lister with a handle or is there another way?

i would be happy to pay up to £100 for a machine, restored or not just because when i come home from work, walked the dog i have nothing else to do... nothing ever good on tv no more.


thanks again guys

Gareth

i think iv decided on either a villiers mk12 or a villiers midget...


does any one know any usual issues with them, anything to look for and any good things about them?

thanks in advance

Gareth

Kev's your man when it comes to Villiers engines. I recently took a Mk12 apart though. Personally they're a bit too modern for me, but they are a stationary engine nonetheless & it didn't stop me buying 2 of them (attached to Hippo Self Priming pumps). One was a runner & has since gone elsewhere, the other is still in bits in the workshop, destined to.......well.....erm.... stay in bits I suppose. Although with a bit of work it could be made to run again.

You know there are plenty of different engines about. My advice (& it's only my 2 pennies worth) is not to set your sights on any particular engine type, but to keep your eyes open & just go for the first thing that comes along & takes your fancy (not necessarily just the first thing that comes along). You could pass on many different engines, but when that special one comes along that you just get the feeling you'd like it to be yours, you'll know & hopefully you'll get it. If you don't get it, then it just wasn't to be & the next one will be yours.

You could go for a Lister D (as already discussed), maybe a Wolseley, maybe a Petter A1, could even be a JAP. Could be air cooled, could be water cooled, could even be a marine engine or a complete generator set. Who knows?

Anyway, that's pretty much what I do. But it's up to you at the end of the day.

thanks nutts

i know what you mean. i have a habbit of starting "projects" and never finishing them. i think the most spectacular one i ever failed on was a solar panel. i spent months researching, buying all the parts(cells,wood,plastic,housing,tools) just before i started bought a small soldering kit the basic soil dryness type and i releised how shocking my soldering skills were gave up as nothing would actually stay down (and too many dry joints) and then 3 years later sold the solar project on...... so i dont want the engine to be like that. id love to start a small easy(well not as complicated) project (thats why i was thinking of a midget or the mk12) as apposed to somthing like a lister and also i have a silly car which for its massive size has absolutely no room what so ever (merc E class saloon)

hopefully i might have an engine tomorrow as im going to view.... i guess these engines are like cars.... its not you who chooses the engine..its them who chooses you!

Gaz

Gaz engines such as the Villiers can be a pain in the ass, problems like getting the flywheel off, you need this off to get to electrics and if you find the mag is shot there not cheap to replace so as Nuts says don't buy the first engine you see. You should try and find a non runner but one that has a spark as that can be the difficult part of the engine to sort (if your limited in electrical knowledge LOL).
No matter what you get we'll try our best to help you get it back up and running again.

Stu.

stu is correct if a villiers has a spark then its a far cheaper restoration job
kev

I have a mark 12 (I think) bit of a rip of though, £40. I also have a motor bike with a Villiers midget in it!

hello guys


well i got back from the engine and i um.... maybe bought it:P i really liked the size of it and the weight and the cuteness!. (it came home in a rubber maid tub (perfectish fit) i was going to wrap tarp over the top and tie it but it was fairly clean as well so just fed seat belt through handles and cliped it in!

i'll post images to my fliker account for all to see (dont think i can post photos yet as my accounts young?)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/garethmob/sets/72157633911007610/

what i thought was a mk12, actually turns out to be a mk25. the seller said he picked it up from the local army base bout 20 years ago and left it in his shed (mk25 around 1941?) the serial numbers in one of the images sadly i took the photos with my iphone, it was a little dark in the garage (high roof) so i didnt bother get the DSLR out

sadly it didnt come with fuel tank (as expected, gonna test it on a coke bottle while i look for one) is there anything else missing in the images?

there was plenty of compresson when i turned it over (didnt try to start it as the govner leaver outside was unscrewed from carb) and i want to do oil change ect before. and also i didnt have a starter cable (and i refuse to use an electric drill)

sadly i didnt get a sparc. not sure what im supposed to do to be honest (all my cars have been diesel) any tips hopefully mags not dead

i took her apart and back together (it seemed eaiser than i expected....) and nice gasket on there.... no idea age, but it dosent like its run with it.

the exaust is fairly rusty, and the air filter is fairly seazed on the shutter hole on the side. might soak it in some penertrating oil to unsease it.

is there any think i really need to look at (good or bad) i dont mind having to buy parts.


also what were the origional colours of these engines (all models) this is a dark green....... i would like to do a blue but not if its out of place.


also there was a interesting plaque on the top with contract infomation, is this normal?

thanks guys:)

Gaz

sorry can't help you, but it looks like a nice engine though. Personally if you want to do your engine blue, do it blue. As long as you are happy with it.

are the special types of paints (heat resistant?) or can i use car paint or somthing? i would probally paint the head sink a black, primer it but is water based paints advisable?

Not sure about water based paints but I would definitely put primer on, and use heat resistant on the exhaust.

Here's pics of a Villiers I did last year.


Villiers engine after restoration by LewizMacRae, on Flickr


Villiers engine before restoration by LewizMacRae, on Flickr

thats pretty impressive i hope mine looks like yours when im finished.

do you take off the plaques and then rivet them back on?

that didn't come with plaques, No that's a lie it came with a serial number one but I didn't take it off but I did on my Lister D

But its up to you if you want to take them off or not

Pretty much any engine enamel type paint is good for these. They're usually just painted the same colour all over, apart from the carb & exhaust (I think most people paint them in a hurry).

The last 2 I had were sprayed all over & none of it was peeling or flaking on the barrel fins, although if you take your time & paint the barrel in matt black & if the head is aluminium then either leave it clean or paint silver, I reckon that looks right on most air cooled engines, but really it's yours, paint it whatever colour you like. (most engine enamels will put up with the barrel, but not the exhaust, that will need high-temp or rust converter, or preferably both).

TBH I don't actually know what colour Villiers painted their engines, as I've never seen one in original paint.

The contract plate is normal for military issue.

If the mag is dead don't worry, you can either splash out on a new coil or I can talk you through how to make up your own energy transfer type system with some enamelled copper wire & an old 6v or 12v ignition coil. I know a new mag coil will probably cost more than the engine is worth, but don't let it put you off. I'm guessing you bought this engine for your own enjoyment, & probably not as a wise future investment (it's a labour of love most of the time, but odd times in this hobby you might make a few pennies to put back in the pot).

If you want to know how to test the magneto coil then either I or someone else can talk you through it, you'll need a basic multimeter type electrical tester. If the coil is fine then it will probably be worth replacing the condenser (I replace them anyway, as a matter of course, never tested an old one & found it to be any good, although most of them still sparked).

Anyway, welcome aboard! Enjoy your first engine & may it be the first of many!

ahhhh lol ok, i think i will take them off, polish them up a bit! any ideas what the top one is about?

Oh yes, don't go near water based, not even water based primer, they don't work on engines because they won't sit on the slightest bit of oil & tend not to be petrol proof.

Ask your local paint supplier, go in there & have a chat with them (best use one of the trade ones on an industrial estate). They will recommend something for you. Personally I use Teamac Red Oxide primer & usually follow 2 coats of that with 2 top coats of Bradite ME53 Fastrac enamel. If you quote those 2 paints they will either be able to supply them, or they will be able to supply you with something roughly equivalent.

If you're spraying then you'll need to top off with a petrol resistant lacquer, as most car paints aren't petrol proof.

garethmob wrote:ahhhh lol ok, i think i will take them off, polish them up a bit! any ideas what the top one is about?

Military contract info I expect. Probably won't mean much to you or me, but could well get you some info on the engine, & what it did, later on.

ahh kwl im guessing enamel paint is easy to find? i will most likely then blue the engine (if i like the blue) and silver the head:)

ahhh so mine is a military engine, any ideas what it might have done in its past life? well im not sure yet, i only quickly took it apart, and got distracted by a guy in the unit next to the garage his 1940s tractor died (turned out the fuel line got blocked) but we got it working so all good

im not going to sell this engine im not really one for selling anything to be honest, iv got far too much "junk" lol

thanks tho matt i'll see if the machanic tomorrow can help when i get home from work see what he says:)

it has a dangling red cable, any idea what its for?

thanks guys:) cant wait till i get her running!

Gaz

nutgone wrote:Pretty much any engine enamel type paint is good for these. They're usually just painted the same colour all over, apart from the carb & exhaust (I think most people paint them in a hurry).

The last 2 I had were sprayed all over & none of it was peeling or flaking on the barrel fins, although if you take your time & paint the barrel in matt black & if the head is aluminium then either leave it clean or paint silver, I reckon that looks right on most air cooled engines, but really it's yours, paint it whatever colour you like. (most engine enamels will put up with the barrel, but not the exhaust, that will need high-temp or rust converter, or preferably both).

TBH I don't actually know what colour Villiers painted their engines, as I've never seen one in original paint.

The contract plate is normal for military issue.

If the mag is dead don't worry, you can either splash out on a new coil or I can talk you through how to make up your own energy transfer type system with some enamelled copper wire & an old 6v or 12v ignition coil. I know a new mag coil will probably cost more than the engine is worth, but don't let it put you off. I'm guessing you bought this engine for your own enjoyment, & probably not as a wise future investment (it's a labour of love most of the time, but odd times in this hobby you might make a few pennies to put back in the pot).

If you want to know how to test the magneto coil then either I or someone else can talk you through it, you'll need a basic multimeter type electrical tester. If the coil is fine then it will probably be worth replacing the condenser (I replace them anyway, as a matter of course, never tested an old one & found it to be any good, although most of them still sparked).

Anyway, welcome aboard! Enjoy your first engine & may it be the first of many!