Villiers C-12 4 stroke recondition

Hello everyone
I have just joined the forum and so Happy New Years to you all.
I am dismantling the above motor fitted with a 3-1 reduction gearbox and need a little help.
I found a bent con rod and serious piston skirt wear on removal of the sump.
I believe the previous owner may have removed the Flywheel and replaced it out of sync because the points are nowhere near 3 1/16ths from TDC. How do I remove the Flywheel nut ? (righthand thread) and re set the timing?
Also, is there anyone here who may have a con rod / piston for sale? Used is fine as long as the is a bit of life left and tolerances are ok.

hi there decarb
the flywheel nut is anti clockwise to undo and will go loose and then need to wedge it well "NOT WITH THE COOLING ALLOY FINS"
i use a rag on rear shaft and stilsons, on the flywheel i use 2 wooden wedges with foam or rubber on top betwen the wood and flywheel for extra grip and my feet to hold them in place,
and us a standard socket t-bar and a soft hammer leather or rubber , and ive always won the battle this way on my own if theres 2 of you then its easyer mate
3/16" BTDC" before top dead" is the piston top/crown to top of bore mate and then line the flywheel line to the back plate top line 12 oclock
can i have the serial number of your engine and the id plate info to as i may have a piston and conrod for you also the diameter of the bore as they did also STD ,+20 and +40" thou bores too this may be on the piston crown top also if your looky its a std
i have a few 20 30 villiers knocking around in my sheds mate some are just breakers and others are runners and boxes of knackered blocked ones to
i have most villiers manuals on pdf file if you need one for your own project
kev

Hi Kev
Thank you for your answer and helpful assistance, much appreciated.
Here is the info you asked for: serial No ........625X 74739
ID plate info....Mark 412H2RG
Bore.............. 55mm
Thanks for the offer of a pdf file of the manual also but I managed to get a Villiers booklet off ebay.
So from what you have said, the flywheel nut turns anti clockwise to undo? I have removed the outer nut which holds the starter rope cowl
which has anticlockwise thread. What about the inner one? the book says it is right hand thread (clockwise) ? This is an Aussie build ? is there a difference?
The reduction box on the drive shaft side makes it very awkward as it is reverse of the flywheel side, could I use a hardwood wedge inside the block to jam the crank?

Cheers mate
Chas

It's basically a plain taper with a captive nut in the flywheel.

I find, on most of my stuff with this system, you need to use a good spanner or socket or large adjustable & you need to strike it, well up the shaft/handle, with a good hard metal hammer. Anything with a rubber, plastic or wood handle/shaft/head won't do as it's the shock you need to get it undone.

Sometimes, if I can get in there, I hold the flywheel between my legs or feet(boots) to stop it turning too much, but it's the shock you really need to release a taper, a long acting brute turning force is just going to damage something, & could even be how your con-rod got bent in the first place.

I rarely need to wedge anything, I just hold it with my hand & let the shock blows do the work. However, if it's been in one piece for some time you may well need to wedge something to stop it turning, but I've had stuff undone without even holding it in the past, purely by using this method. But it needs to be a good metal to metal blow, not soft hammers, they won't work.

When you're putting it back together you need to tighten this captive nut as best you can by hand, until the nut goes tight, without disturbing the timing position. Then you need to get something like a piece of pipe or a socket which is bigger than the centre nut. You place this squarely over the nut so it makes contact with the flywheel face & give it a couple of good taps with a hammer. You will then find the nut has gone loose. Re-tighten by hand & repeat this procedure just to make sure (it may go loose again, but you may have succeeded the first time).

You can then go on & tighten up the centre nut without any fear of it adjusting your carefully placed timing.

What you are doing here is locking the taper on before you do the final tightening. With a good clean, oil free taper nothing should be able to move it. But you must make sure, as with all taper joints, that they are clean, shiny, oil, dirt, grease & rust free with any deep score marks or scratches polished out with some fine abrasive paper.

Good luck with it, hope this helps.

Hi Matt
Thanks for explaining how the flywheel locking system works, it is a bit like a double lock, the taper, and a keeper nut. I had the impression the lock nut was part of the flywheel... as it says in the booklet that it is "imprisoned in" the flywheel ? I will give it a sharpish tap and see what happens. I have been a little soft on it so far struggling by hand levering. You gotta be cruel to be kind...
Thanks for your help and your advice on resetting the flywheel when it goes back together,all handy stuff to know.
Regards
Chas

Chas welcome to the forum, there's a great bunch of members on here that will help anyone that's stuck with an engine problem. Hope you can get it all sorted and find the correct con rod and piston so you can get her up and running again. You keep saying about the manual being in Australian, are you in Oz?

Stu.

Hi Stu
Nice to get aquainted and I must say the help I have recieved on my first day has been has been great !
Yes, I am in Wollongong Australia, not a bad neck of the woods.
I have had a quick browse of the site and some very interesting projects going on and by the look of it, some very experienced and knowledgable people very willing to share, great stuff.

Chas

Yeah, it's what we call a "captive nut", held by an integral washer in the flywheel so it acts like it's own puller when unscrewed.

It is almost like a double locking thing when you un-do it, as you have the first "struggle" to get the nut undone, then just when you think you've cracked it, it goes tight again. that's the taper locked on, you simply have to go through the same process as undoing (like undoing it twice) & the taper should part & the wheel will slowly come off as you un-do the nut.

It'll all make perfect sense when you get to it, but the trick I explained to get it back together is a good one. My dad taught me that when I was a kid, & it was on a Villiers engine as well. I also find it useful on all magnetos with a tapered drive system, as it locks everything & you don't lose your timing.

But I can never stress the importance of making sure both surfaces of the taper are clean & free of oil & grease. Always give the inside a wipe out & remove any high spots (from scratches or gouge marks) with a fine stone or some abrasive paper. A good, clean, dry taper should lock on nicely.

Oh yeah, a very warm welcome to the forum, it's always nice to have new members, especially from the other side of the world.
You'll find us lot a friendly bunch, always willing to help out where we can.

I just want to let you all know that your advice worked a treat, all apart no problem. I see now why it was wanting to lock up again now.
I stripped it down and examined the bearings and seals, they look and feel ok, there was not much sign of leakage from the seals before I started so I will leave them intact, and very little noise in the bearings, or play. The motor doesn't have to be mickey mouse, as long as she ticks over and does what I ask of it, I'm happy.
I flushed the gearbox while I was at it and started the re-build with fresh cut gaskets. Cleaned points and magneto housing, checked coil and condenser, had good blue spark before I started so should be ok. By the look of it, the flywheel may have moved prior to me struggling with it,there were signs on the taper of spinning....when I do set the flywheel, I will make sure it is clean and dry and seat it tightly, thanks for the tips...
Its all going good so thanks very much guys.
I will now try to chase down a con rod and piston, hopefully Kev might have something in his shed? If not, there are a couple of places I can try, there is a steam enthusiasts group here and I'm sure there is somebody there who may help or put me onto someone who can.
All the best for the New Year chaps.
Chas

Is there any bronze in the gearbox? I'm told you shouldn't use modern gear oils with any bronze gears or bushes etc. Apparently modern gear oils (like Hypoid) will eat bronze.

This engine might be too late for that kind of stuff, & it probably just takes normal engine oil in the gearbox, but I thought I should pass it along.

Happy new year!

Chas glad to hear your making good progress and keep us informed if you manage to find the parts you need.

Nuts we used Hypoid gear oil all the time in gearboxes without any problems, this was on commercial vehicle gearboxes with brass sychro hubs etc. That was a few years back so unless things have changed I can see it being to much of a problem.

Stu.

Hi Nuts and Stu
No bronze in the gearbox, I think this is a later model motor and box,50's-60's? maybe even later, booklet recommends Castrol XL (S.A.E.30)as the gear lube.
There is nothing like it in today's hi tech world is there? bronze.... handles and levers.. knarled nobs and buttons... oil caps and bushes...
They made them to last those days, just keep the lubrication up to them and a bit of tlc every few hundred hours and they will almost run forever... you don't know what you've got till it's gone as the song goes...good to see old motors come to life again, and hear them talk...
Chas

I've definitely heard it somewhere Stu, it's quite common knowledge not to use modern gear oils with old bronze gears. I'm sure someone will come along soon with the details, I can't remember the ins & outs of it all.

Chas, you can still get monograde oils (or straight oils as they're known), but TBH I would just go to your nearest motor spares shop & ask for the cheapest, most basic engine oil for this. The cheaper, more basic ones have fewer (if any) additives & are better for older engines & gearboxes.

But, if you'd rather stick with a monograde oil, just look for "Classic" or "Vintage" oils on eBay & places like that, they are about & aren't too bad price wise.