Lister d Mag help needed.

by The Lister Man Sat Sep 08 2012, 10:17

Hi guys

i have been having issues getting a spark from my Lister D
the spark plug is a champion d16.

i can get a spark from the points but nothing from the plug

can you please suggest any solutions?

Cheers cheers

by matt86 Sat Sep 08 2012, 10:24

The Lister Man wrote:Hi guys

i have been having issues getting a spark from my Lister D
the spark plug is a champion d16.

i can get a spark from the points but nothing from the plug

can you please suggest any solutions?

Cheers

sounds like your mag needs some work if sparking at the points .... have you got a decent WIRE lead ? and when test for a spark try with no plug and hold 1/4" from a clean bolt etc ... Does it spark ?

by Guest Sat Sep 08 2012, 10:42

I'll have to agree with Matt and say check your HT lead, try just putting an old bit of wire (plastic coated) on the mag output the put the wire to a good earth on the engine see if it sparks. Have you painted the bottom of the mag or the bracket it sits on? As that needs an earth also.

Stu.

by The Lister Man Sat Sep 08 2012, 11:23

Hey stu

i have not painted the engine at all but i can get a spark from the mag casing to the engine metal but nothing from the coil brass point to the engine metal

any suggestions mate ?

Cheers cheers

Luke

by Biggsy Sun Sep 09 2012, 08:15

when i rebuilt my mag i removed the coil, undo the 4 screws and remove brackets on each side, with the wire to the condenser disconnected i wiggled coil and it came out, under coil was some corrosion, i cleaned it well and spark was a lot stronger when put back.

the other thing i found was inside mag cap, there was a screw that pierces ht lead and holds ht lead in cap, when checked i found bad pitting and corrision on tip from spark arching inside lead, cleaned it well and replaced ht lead (motorcycle shops sell it by the meter) now spark looks perfect.

remember for good spark not only do you need good electrical continuity from coil to plug, you also need it from mag body to engine body, if corroded or 'iffy', adding an earth strap fro mag body to engine should help.

cheers

paul

by Guest Sun Sep 09 2012, 10:52

It's very difficult to sometimes explain some of these procedures they could be done quicker then trying to write it down so it can be read and is understandable.

Stu

by The Lister Man Sun Sep 09 2012, 11:57

Hi guys

i have tried everything you have suggested but no joy

i can get a spark from the connector on the right hand side of the coil
but nothing from the brass button on the front of the coil
the magneto is a lucas sr1

any suggestions
cheers cheers

Luke

by matt86 Sun Sep 09 2012, 13:32

The Lister Man wrote:Hi guys

i have tried everything you have suggested but no joy

i can get a spark from the connector on the right hand side of the coil
but nothing from the brass button on the front of the coil
the magneto is a lucas sr1

any suggestions
cheers

Luke

Luke have you got a multimeter ?

matt

by Guest Sun Sep 09 2012, 13:33

Hi guys, Luke (The Lister Man) is only 14 and has his first engine and needs help, so I'd be greatful if you can give this young lad a hand to get his engine up and running. He's having problems with his mag so anyone that can help him would be his life saver. It's not much fun to start up in this hobby not knowing anyone and having limited knowledge of engines so please lets help this young lad on his way.
I think he's in the Somerset area if anyone is local to him.

Stu.

by matt86 Sun Sep 09 2012, 14:02

he is closeish to me but still hour and half away from me . Im having a feeling that the coil is up the duff . Need to measure the resistance to see if any good .

matt

by The Lister Man Sun Sep 09 2012, 14:54

Hi guys

Sorry about not replying sooner

I don,t have a multimeter Matt but i might know somebody who does

What kind of reading am i looking for?.

Also thanks for the message stu it gave me a real boost
if i get a multimeter i will get back to you guys asap

Cheers cheers

Luke

by matt86 Sun Sep 09 2012, 20:58

The Lister Man wrote:Hi guys

Sorry about not replying sooner

I don,t have a multimeter Matt but i might know somebody who does

What kind of reading am i looking for?.

Also thanks for the message stu it gave me a real boost
if i get a multimeter i will get back to you guys asap

Cheers
Luke

I dont actually know off the top of my head the Ohm reading .... does anyone know what a good reading on the coil is ?

matt

by blackvanman Sun Sep 09 2012, 22:26

i would expect 1-2k ohms off the top of my head, but you can't rely on that, I would as suggested look at your ht lead first, if there is a high resistance break in the lead the mag will arc out at the path of least resistance.

by nutgone Sun Sep 09 2012, 22:55

Basically, you are looking for a low resistance on the low tension side of the coil (which is the little wire which goes to the points, you need to measure the resistance between this little wire & the metal bar going through the centre of the coil, which is where both high & low tension coils are earthed), this resistance should only be a few ohms, maybe under 1 or 2 ohms.

Then you need to measure the resistance of the high tension coil, this is again earthed on the metal bar, the other end of it is the little brass button on the coil, which connects to the HT lead, this should be in the thousands of ohms (or K-Ohms).

To put it simply (I don't know how knowledgeable in electrics you are) that coil in the mag actually contains 2 coils, the low tension one is a few turns of thicker wire, hence the lower ohms reading, the high tension coil is thousands of turns of wire thinner than a human hair, hence the higher resistance.

Also, & this is important, in order to do these coil tests you really need to remove the coil from the mag, it's easily done. Some small "jumper" wires with small crocodile clips on each end make it a lot easier than trying to hold test leads like chopsticks! (they make the whole process a lot less infuriating, you can buy sets of 5 or 10 on eBay for a few quid, PM me if you want a link)

I have a Lucas SR1 mag here, in bits, it's actually my brother's. The coil's gone on that too, a rewound coil can be had for £75 exchange, I know a guy local to me who has them on the shelf.

I'm not a fan of the SR1, I'm not a fan of Lucas in general, but really don't like the SR1, there are a lot of better mags out there, like the WICO A-Type, they don't often go wrong (except for the one on my JAP, that one has a buggered coil as well!)

I hope these instructions are a help, if you want to know any more let me know, or if you don't understand what I'm on about I'm sure someone else can explain the same thing, but in different words.

Feel free to PM me for any info, good luck.

by nutgone Sun Sep 09 2012, 23:05

Also, I feel I should add, these coils are usually fine on the low tension side, the trouble is normally on the high tension side, as the wire is so thin, it only needs to get a little moisture in there & over time it will rot through the copper. The electricity will continue to jump this small gap, which will erode the copper even more, making the gap even bigger, until it stops working completely.

With some flywheel mags it is possible to remove a few of the outer turns of wire, but these sorts of mags tend to get the damp in from the centre, & to get to that you'd need to remove thousands of turns, with absolutely no hope of ever getting it back together. That wire really is very thin, & every layer of the coil is separated from the last by a sheet of oiled paper, making it a very difficult task to re-wind one yourself.

by nutgone Sun Sep 09 2012, 23:42

Also, a couple of other points. I got myself a very good multimeter from Hong Kong on eBay, it took a week or two to arrive, but is very good & auto-ranging, so no need to guess which setting to put it on. I think it cost me about £16 all in. Cheapo ones are OK, but don't have the testing range for high resistances & won't last very long, but they will get you out of trouble, so not to be discounted. Ypu can often find little cheap ones on tool stalls at rallies for about £5-£8.

Also, it doesn't do magnetos any good to make that spark jump big gaps. They are primerily designed to make it jump a gap of no more than about .020" (20 thou, which is 0.5mm). Your plug gap should be set at around .015"-.018" (15 to 18 thou, which is 0.381 to 0.457mm), any more than this for prolonged periods can result in damage to the magneto coil (I know people get away with it, & yes you probably could for some time, but it's good practise not to over stress the mag & if you treat your mag well it will treat you well).

You shouldn't really spin them over with the HT lead disconnected too much either, you should earth the lead out if you plan to be spinning the engine over with the plug disconnected a lot.
A quick barrel clear-out shouldn't do any harm, likewise the odd quick test with the HT lead in a pair of insulated pliers, held about 1/4 inch from the mag body should be OK, but be aware this is asking the mag to do much more than it was designed to do.

I hope all this isn't making your head spin too much. I only found half of this out quite recently myself, but on consulting a few magneto specialists they seem to agree (I read most of it in a Velocette motorcycle club magazine of my Dad's, it was a piece written by one of the country's foremost motorcycle magneto specialists. Stationary engine mags aren't under as much stress I know, but it helps to know these things).

The only exception to this I can find is some flywheel mags. My Homelite generator takes it to extremes though. this has a WICO flywheel mag & states a plug gap of 25 thou! It must have a higher voltage coil in it or something, as this is the kind of gap you'd normally find on a coil ignition system.

PM me if you want any links to the stuff I mention on eBay, that goes for anyone, if I mention something I've bought & you wanna look into getting one yourself, just drop me a message.

by steve w Sat Sep 15 2012, 18:23

your not alone - i have tried all day to spark my lister up with no joy, the points spark but no spark at the plug - i might get a new spark plug and new hd cable for starters, some great replys to your thread,

by blackvanman Sun Sep 16 2012, 12:22

Forget anything I or anyone else has said so far about "sparking at the points"!

mentioned this issue in passing to my father just now, he instantly responded that this is almost certainly a condensor issue. Pretty cheap to fix and many an engine has been scrapped because it has been overlooked Sad

by steve w Sun Sep 16 2012, 14:53

blackvanman wrote:Forget anything I or anyone else has said so far about "sparking at the points"!

mentioned this issue in passing to my father just now, he instantly responded that this is almost certainly a condensor issue. Pretty cheap to fix and many an engine has been scrapped because it has been overlooked

Thanks for the reply - i see they are about £5 so a bargain, i will order one up. - nearly killed me just trying to turn it over looking for a spark lol.

steve

by billypurves Sun Sep 16 2012, 17:25

blackvanman wrote:Forget anything I or anyone else has said so far about "sparking at the points"!

mentioned this issue in passing to my father just now, he instantly responded that this is almost certainly a condensor issue. Pretty cheap to fix and many an engine has been scrapped because it has been overlooked

Tend to agrre with your father on this one. When fitting another condensor check the insulators on the points pivot pin too. Dust and other debris around the mag will do you no favours either.

by blackvanman Sun Sep 16 2012, 17:59

If your not overly fussed on originality behind the scenes, one of these will do the same job. Just remove the old condenser, tag a couple of wires one the little legs and put it in place of your old one. You have to buy a min of 5 but you will have 5 instead of one for around the same price.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/polyester-film-capacitors/0115281/
or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POLYESTER-CAPACITOR-368-SERIES-0-22uF-400v-QTY-5-/110654924670?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item19c38c277e

infact I may have something suitable in the van if you are local to southampton

by steve w Sun Sep 16 2012, 18:55

thanks for that - i have an old account with rs, thanks for the offer but i am way away from southampton. seems i am in a bit of no mans land for stationary enginers.

by nutgone Mon Sep 17 2012, 19:09

You do get a spark at the points with normal ignition system, when it is running as it should, but this should only be a very small spark, quite difficult to spot. If you have a big spark at the points then you do indeed have a condenser problem.

I've just made my own condenser for the WICO A on the JAP, I looked into it & was lead to believe it was supposed to be a 150nF capacitor (EasyCap offer a 150 & a 220nF version, they say you'll get easier starting with the 150nF, so I went for that. I've soldered it in, but that will all be reported about on another thread). I have since measured some different condensers on my special "Capacitor Measuring Machine" & they all measure over 220nF, more like 275nF. Have I bought the wrong capacitor??? (not according to EasyCap, but what do they know?)
I couldn't even find a proper replacement condenser for the WICO A Series, so I had to solder up my own, as the condenser on that holds the points screw & the oil wick.

Personally if it was for a Lucas SR1 I would go into a motor factors & just ask for any old condenser, usually just ask for the cheapest or just "one off a Mini", it should fit & will do the job in most magnetos, just not a WICO A series, as it physically won't fit.

Here's the capacitor I used on my WICO A:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290702803905?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

I was told film capacitors were better than polyester ones for condensers, but I personally don't see how it makes that much difference, I personally wouldn't use any capacitor with under 500v capacity though, which is why I went for the one I did, as it is rated at 630v. My reasoning behind this is that I know most proper ignition system condensers are rated at 500v, I know 400v would probably be fine, but if it is under rated it will eventually break down. I have no idea if it is under rated though, I just like to know these things are over rated for the job they are doing.

by blackvanman Tue Sep 18 2012, 18:50

nutgone wrote:You do get a spark at the points with normal ignition system, when it is running as it should, but this should only be a very small spark, quite difficult to spot. If you have a big spark at the points then you do indeed have a condenser problem.

I've just made my own condenser for the WICO A on the JAP, I looked into it & was lead to believe it was supposed to be a 150nF capacitor (EasyCap offer a 150 & a 220nF version, they say you'll get easier starting with the 150nF, so I went for that. I've soldered it in, but that will all be reported about on another thread). I have since measured some different condensers on my special "Capacitor Measuring Machine" & they all measure over 220nF, more like 275nF. Have I bought the wrong capacitor??? (not according to EasyCap, but what do they know?)
I couldn't even find a proper replacement condenser for the WICO A Series, so I had to solder up my own, as the condenser on that holds the points screw & the oil wick.

Personally if it was for a Lucas SR1 I would go into a motor factors & just ask for any old condenser, usually just ask for the cheapest or just "one off a Mini", it should fit & will do the job in most magnetos, just not a WICO A series, as it physically won't fit.

Here's the capacitor I used on my WICO A:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290702803905?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

I was told film capacitors were better than polyester ones for condensers, but I personally don't see how it makes that much difference, I personally wouldn't use any capacitor with under 500v capacity though, which is why I went for the one I did, as it is rated at 630v. My reasoning behind this is that I know most proper ignition system condensers are rated at 500v, I know 400v would probably be fine, but if it is under rated it will eventually break down. I have no idea if it is under rated though, I just like to know these things are over rated for the job they are doing.

.2uf-.47uf is the average accross the board within those ranges is not overly criticle don't forget most caps will have a tollerance of around +/- 5%, 400v is plenty adequate for the task, you would know about it very quickly if it wasn't Smile

I may get my capacitance meter from the van and check the A1 if I remember, I would think getting better starting from a .15uf cap is BS myself.....

by nutgone Tue Sep 18 2012, 23:11

Do you think the 150nF will do though??? I've probably got a bigger one knocking about, but will usually buy new if I can. Perhaps I should've gone for the 220nF???

I've got a couple of microwave oven caps as well, but I think they may be overkill lol!

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