Making a generator for the Lister B - I have an old motor is it suitable?

Hi chaps.
I've introduced myself in the new members area and thought I'd jump straight in.

We've got a lovely Lister B 5hp:

I have an old (Brook Motors) Gryphon 2336M English made 240v AC motor. The plate says 2.5amps and 2850 rpm.
I believe it's from a pillar drill, it's fitted with a cone of different diameter pulley tracks on it's axle so it will have some pretty serious bearings to handle sideways tension from a belt drive. It should be a good candidate. What do you think?

My only reservations about it are... The high rpm rating and that it has little to no resistance when turning by hand so I don't think it' a permanent magnet motor. Does that matter?
Behind the wiring cover there are many terminals for different wiring configurations. I'd need some help in working out which ones to use. It's currently wired up to a domestic three pin plug.
When I plug it in the motor runs really nicely, very smooth and quiet. It runs for ages when unplugged, it has a lot of momentum.
It really looks the part as well, it must be decades old.

Its a 1960's induction motor, not permanent magnet, converting it to a gen set will not be a straight forward exercise, it involves separating the windings with capacitance of the correct value. Personally I would leave well alone, especially if you only have limited electrical knowledge. It would be far more sensible to acquire a suitable alternator (Please don't think I am just being negative, I am just saying how its).

Thanks for the info mate.
I appreciate the realism.
It's a nice old motor though isn't it?
I have another... The one that's on the pillar drill. I could swap them over to use that one if it's any more suited?
It may well be the same situation though.
Here are the details:

I believe that 3 phase motor's are far easier to convert than single phase, I have a large single phase motor sitting in my shed that I had planned to get converted but an electrician friend said "no way" so it stays there gathering dust!  

Pete.

Foden wrote:I believe that 3 phase motor's are far easier to convert than single phase, I have a large single phase motor sitting in my shed that I had planned to get converted but an electrician friend said "no way" so it stays there gathering dust!  

Pete.

one issue is the windings aren't built for the load. Its just best to stay well clear (I am an electrical engineer).

Cut your losses and get a water pump, lot less hassle.

I understand. Thanks again.
Would eBay item number 201010916264 be a decent donor if it sells for a reasonable price? (It's getting high already.) It's local to me.
(I could also get the engine from it going again some time in the future.)

Handmade Matt wrote:I understand. Thanks again.
Would eBay item number 201010916264 be a decent donor if it sells for a reasonable price? (It's getting high already.) It's local to me.
(I could also get the engine from it going again some time in the future.)

Yes, great provided the windings are ok, plus it has the possibility of making it a start o matic
much better way forward IF the alternator is good

Please bare in mind when you set it all up that the rpm of the alternator is crucial, it will either be 4 pole requiring 1500rpm or 2 pole req 3000 rpm (the alternator will state its speed), the needs to be right to produce the correct frequency of the output (50hz) making things simple (ish) using a 2 pole as an example 1 cycle (complete sine wave) is one revolution, the figure in hz is the number of cycles per second so 3000 rpm is 50rps (revolutions per second) which directly equates to 50hz. The reason I am telling you this now is you will need to allow for this in you installation when thinking about pulley's and engine speed, whether it be the alternator you have pointed out or any other

Villiers wrote:Cut your losses and get a water pump, lot less hassle.

   Gotta love your bloody humour Rob , cracks me up every time    

Ref eBay item number 20101091626

blackvanman wrote:
Yes, great provided the windings are ok, plus it has the possibility of making it a start o matic
much better way forward IF the alternator is good

I understand about generator RPM and the theory behind the ratios of belts. I may well be asking more questions when it actually comes to it but I feel confident for now. What do you mean "start-o-matic"

Does anyone know much about that Petter engine. I can't find much info online except I guess it was probably made in the 70's and I've seen one fitted to a cement mixer in a video.

It's a Petter AC1ZS as far as I can see. Is it similar (or the same) as the Petter A1?
eBay item number 20101091626

It might be a nice project on it's own? Any thoughts?
Ta

its completely different to the A1, for a start its a diesel , its a multi purpose small air cooled diesel, they were fitted to all sorts of equipment from gensets like this, mixers (as you say), pump sets, lots of uses, think they were born in the late 60's, don't know a lot about them tbh.

Start o matic was a trade phrase of Lister, in simple terms it was a box of tricks that all the time no power was needed the engine just sat there silent with a 12v feed to the output, when you switched on a light or started a drill etc, the box would sense the load using the 12v as a means of detection, it would then put a battery feed to a 12v coil on the alternator making it act as a starter motor starting the engine and intern generating the electricity called for by the item you switched on.

Right. Thanks.
I am actually looking for a diesel stationary engine project. I even posted in the wanted section. I'm kind of bumbling around in the dark with this new hobby but that's how we learn isn't it?
I'm familiar with classic motorcycle engines you see but not so much agricultural stuff.
I've never really worked on a diesel either (other than servicing my car.)
I want a diesel stationary engine project to learn more about diesel in general.

This could be perfect, again it's very local and I think the 1.3kw generator is pretty well matched to my 5hp Lister B. A good load but not close to the limit for the old girl. (Am I right?)
My only concern is that maybe the generator is not designed (in the bearing department) to be sideways driven as in this unit it is coupled to the engine shaft. I guess it will be OK for gentle use?

This is what he's said to me in emails. It's a bit cryptic, I don't think he proof read it but I think the general gist is OK:
"Used until recently to power a small cottage but engine failed (Probably lack of compression.) I did not take the system out when it failed. When I went to try it the engine did not want to start probably due to very low compression . The generator is not tested and will need some work on the control system. The engine turns over OK and has not been seized."

Handmade Matt wrote:Right. Thanks.
I am actually looking for a diesel stationary engine project. I even posted in the wanted section. I'm kind of bumbling around in the dark with this new hobby but that's how we learn isn't it?
I'm familiar with classic motorcycle engines you see but not so much agricultural stuff.
I've never really worked on a diesel either (other than servicing my car.)
I want a diesel stationary engine project to learn more about diesel in general.

Exactly, and your going in the right direction

Handmade Matt wrote:
This could be perfect, again it's very local and I think the 1.3kw generator is pretty well matched to my 5hp Lister B. A good load but not close to the limit for the old girl. (Am I right?)
My only concern is that maybe the generator is not designed (in the bearing department) to be sideways driven as in this unit it is coupled to the engine shaft. I guess it will be OK for gentle use?

The B type will me more than happy with that load Accounting for losses and inefficiencies you would be looking at a min of around 3bhp to run that alternator so 5 hp is great As for the sideways torsion, stop worrying those old alternators were built to last, it will be just as happy running on a pulley as it would shaft mounted

Handmade Matt wrote:
This is what he's said to me in emails. It's a bit cryptic, I don't think he proof read it but I think the general gist is OK:
"Used until recently to power a small cottage but engine failed (Probably lack of compression.) I did not take the system out when it failed. When I went to try it the engine did not want to start probably due to very low compression . The generator is not tested and will need some work on the control system. The engine turns over OK and has not been seized."

That's just the usual ebay BS, "It doesn't work, but it did do at some point, I don't have a bloody clue what might be wrong with it (or I do but I'm not going to tell you that!), but I don't want to paint it in too negative a light but also want to cover my backside so you can't come back and give me hassle."

Never take any of that for granted, you have to look at the overall picture: What am I willing to pay? What is the worst case scenario if I do buy it? (engine completely worn out, lots of money and time on rebuild), What if the engine turns out a simple fix, but the alternator is dead and needs a rewind? What if both are dead ducks? If you have answered all those questions and aren't too fearful of the outcomes then go for it Try not to get into a bidding war, I would go up to around a ton on the set if it was me others may price it higher, others lower, but its your budget that counts, its only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it at the end of the day.

The engine could be a simple fix (air in the fuel, stop valve issue, blocked injector etc) if it is down on compression it could be as simple as re-grinding the valves or re-ringing the piston and honing the bore. On the other hand the piston and bore could be badly worn requiring a re-bore, new piston and rings. You just won't know until its been properly looked at.

Tried to make that as balanced as poss, hope it helps

Thanks again for sharing your perspective.
I'm behind you all the way.
I threw in my maximum big of £130 and won for £128. Close.
I feel happy with that.
I'm going to pick it up tomorrow and I'll report back.

Handmade Matt wrote:Thanks again for sharing your perspective.
I'm behind you all the way.
I threw in my maximum big of £130 and won for £128. Close.
I feel happy with that.
I'm going to pick it up tomorrow and I'll report back.

Great stuff, let us know what you find, if you get stuck with the engine and feel you want help with it, your welcome to bring it over here

blackvanman wrote:
...if you get stuck with the engine and feel you want help with it, your welcome to bring it over here

You're a star.

Some great info on electrics flying around on this thread so i thought I'd suggest an invaluable reference book commonly used by those wanting a quick 'on-the-job' reference in the electrical side of stationary engines.

ISBN 0-9623229-5-4

Called: Ugly's Electrical References

produced by Caterpillar and available on Amazon

It’s great for refreshing knowledge on formulas, Amps, Motors, Transformers, conductors general reference etc., windings, math references, electrical symbols, and a million other subjects... blah blah - I know many of our seriously experienced electrical engineers who still use this - good for safety if you have made that personal choice to play with old motors! - I'll shove this in the forum reference section as well....

best

Hamish

Hi guys. I have dismantled the Petter generator now. Here's all the wiring that came with it for the start-o-matic. I'm not sure I'll reinstate it all. I might just mount the generator on a trolley (started below) and have some three pin plugs mounted on it's side.

Having painted the generator it matches in with the Lister equipments and looks more like a set.

looking good, you find you need to mount the alternator on the same trolley as the engine though

blackvanman wrote:looking good, you find you need to mount the alternator on the same trolley as the engine though

I've seen quite a few set ups with generators on a separate trolly.
Like this one on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yv3eR6h8O0

I have some large two foot steel rods.
(You can just about see them poking out lying on the floor between the engine and the pump trolley in the photo above.)
I was thinking about using these in the ground and then maybe a timber brace as well, like in the video.

Handmade Matt wrote:

blackvanman wrote:looking good, you find you need to mount the alternator on the same trolley as the engine though

I've seen quite a few set ups with generators on a separate trolly.
Like this one on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yv3eR6h8O0

I have some large two foot steel rods.
(You can just about see them poking out lying on the floor between the engine and the pump trolley in the photo above.)
I was thinking about using these in the ground and then maybe a timber brace as well, like in the video.

Its fine provided your not putting any real load on
bracing can help