Kohler 4 cylinder engine.

In the flesh I would say this engine (paintwork wise) would be ready to rally. OK it would look a little tatty to the untrained eye but the enthusiasts would love it. Maybe enter it into the later rallies of the season.

So far I think the Scott, Tarpen and Briggs are our engines for the early part of the season (possibly the Homelite). My Stuart Turner is proving a bit of a challenge when it comes to sourcing bits and getting it all together but it is starting to take shape. Maybe middle of the season is when I should plan to introduce that one to the rally scene.

That's my two pennies worth anyway.

OK, thanks for all the replies. I thought I'd better continue with a bit more of an update....

Last time I had pieced it together to check things, now it's all apart again to get it ready for eventual rebuild. I put the crank shaft back in yesterday, to check the main bearings. At first I thought they were a little too tight, but with a drop of oil it seems they are pretty much perfect. If anything they are still a little on the tight side, but I would say they are within tolerances, which is good....



I have also attached all 4 con rods to check the big end bearings. 2 of them I am now happy with, one other I feel is just too tight, another is borderline. My dad says to just leave them be, I have blued them up (oh yes, I forgot to mention, I have treated myself to a tube of engineers blue dye) & ordered a bearing scraper. The tighter one doesn't really seem to show any major high spots though, so I am wondering if a bearing scraper might do more harm than good....



Anyway, the scraper is only £3 plus £1.50 p&p, so it won't break the bank & it's a tool I want to have in my collection.

Yesterday I also had a look at the top coolant pipe, from head to rad. The head connection flange seems fine, but the top connection was very badly corroded, so I spent quite a long time grinding, wire brushing & sanding away at it with the dremmel until I got back to a sound base, then I built it up with some metal putty. I have since sanded it back to a nice flat flange once again....







I have also got a picture of that broken oil retainer plate....



In this pic I am setting the 2 pieces together with some J.B. Weld, I later filled in the gaps with some metal putty & sanded it off. It looks really good, but I've yet to take another pic of it (I will do though, I promise). I managed to, once again, get the dust from this stuff (the metal putty & J.B. Weld) in my eyes, & once again had a very bad nights sleep from it. I will warn anyone who is repairing anything with any of these epoxy, 2 part metal adhesives, if you sand it down afterwards please protect your eyes. I even bathed my eyes with an eye wash after I realised what I had done, but it didn't matter, I did it in the morning & had to put up with the discomfort all day & most of last night, it really is horrible stuff when it gets turned into dust! (I should know better as it's not the first time it's happened to me, but sometimes I never learn ).

I've also been playing around with the governor/magneto drive gear, driven from the cam shaft. It seems that when I do the centre nut, which holds the gear cog on, up tight the shaft won't turn. So I have released it as much as I can & put the split pin through, but I'm not happy with it. Also, when I tighten up the governor housing (which also houses a small bearing on the other end of the shaft) the whole thing goes tight again (but will still turn). It's almost like something's out of line, or the shaft is bent or something. There must be a trick to setting it up. I will get some pics of this area soon & post them up, maybe someone will have an idea.

Today the sun was shining, so I decided it was time to get outside & start to build a trolley for this engine to go on. It's only temporary, so I can move it about once it's built (as it's just too heavy to be left on just wood, I need to be able to move it). Fortunately I had a trolley outside, it's one I got my Stuart Turner P6M + gearbox on. With a few alterations & additions it was made suitable....







It'll do for now anyway.

Also, I took the opportunity to use up some of my newly acquired long rolls of gasket paper to make myself some sump to crank case gaskets. I chose the 0.5mm paper, as it was the middle size of the 3 I have available & is generally a good all-rounder, & I used my engineers blue, although it's pretty expensive for gasket cutting, I prefer it, in some instances, to grease, for marking out the paper....



So that's about it for now. I've been playing around with the coolant connections, but nothing's finalised there yet. Maybe I will get on with that tomorrow & see if I can finally finish off the last of the parts washing (not much left now ).

Good news, I got an email from the man in Canada this afternoon, he has shipped the parts off to me today. They could take a month or possibly even longer to get here, let's hope they don't though.

That's good new's the part's are on they. You will have it all done ready just stick the new bit's in and GO
Andrew

I think I'm pretty much as far as I can get now with this one. I did a few more bits today but am still waiting for pictures to upload to Photobucket from my phone. Will update the thread when they're all together (probably tomorrow now).

Apart from one or two small jobs, like the last few gaskets to cut & sorting out an exhaust & bottom hose, I'm just waiting for parts to arrive now.
So I will probably have to find myself something else to be getting on with in the next day or so....

Before I start, here's that oil retainer plate I repaired the other day....





OK, so a bit more of an update. Yesterday I started off polishing the radiator & cleaning up the connections. It seems that the rad tanks have, at some point, been very lightly copper plated. I'm pretty sure this can be achieved with something as simple as brushing on a solution of water & copper sulphate crystals, weather this is what's been done I don't know, but the thin layer of copper came off with some abrasive polishing to reveal brass tanks. I can only assume the copper was used to hide any solder, giving a nice uniform finish. Here it is, with nice brass tanks....





The wet looking patch is some parts wash which went onto the core when I was freeing off the broken stud in the top flange.

After that I thought I would finish off the last of the parts washing. This involved the fan assembly, the last few bolts & the exhaust manifold. The fan bearing assembly was already disassembled, so I laid it out in order & took some pics....



Cleaned it all up then had to work out how it went back together. I knew the order, but I didn't know how it went into the hub. A bit of tinkering, & chasing ball bearings about & I soon had it back together....



Then came the exhaust manifold. Whatever was screwed in there refuses to come out, so I have cut it off & am considering either cutting into it with a hacksaw or the dremmel, or maybe just welding something onto/into it....



Then I decided it was time to clean up the radiator mounting surround & loosely refit the fan, then the rad, to it....







The bottom connection is a bit strange on this, originally I thought there were 2 bolts missing. For some strange reason the water runs through a small section in the cast iron rad surround. This has one threaded stud & one drilled clearance hole where the engine pipe connects, then both flange holes on the rad are threaded. So either the engine pipe connects with the one threaded stud & a nut & bolt, which is unlikely as the back of the clearance hole isn't flat enough to take the head of a bolt & it would then be practically impossible to get a bolt in to that side of the rad connection. So it must need a big long through bolt, which is missing, but I have a coach bolt which will do for now, & if I can't find anything else, with some simple grinding, it will do as a more permanent fixing. Here's some pics to try & explain what I'm on about....

Here's where the engine bottom pipe connects to the rad surround (you can see the coach bolt going through, with a spacer on the end to make sure it will eventually be long enough)....



Here's an attempted shot of where the rad surround continues inwards to another flange, which connects to the rad....



So, quite strange, & not the most sensible engineering solution. Why make 2 joints, where there only needs to be one???

I still have to make up something for the bottom pipe. It has a flange on each end & turns a sharp corner where it comes off the engine block. What I want to find is a pair of flanges to fit, with stubs off them which I can connect some car type water hose to. But where can I find such flanges? I've searched all over eBay & come up with nothing, except possibly exhaust flanges, which would need hose stubs welding on. The flanges are all the same size, all the usual 2 bolt fixings (like the ones you see on the rad & rad surround). If anyone has any ideas I would love to hear them.

I also put the top pipe on, just to see what it looks like....



But it seems to sit very close to the fan securing bolt....



I don't remember it being that close, maybe it will be different when it's all together. (it also looks like there's a crack down the side of that one, I don't remember seeing that, will have to check it out).

That's about it now. The last couple of jobs are going to be that bottom pipe connection from engine to rad, & sorting out an exhaust of some sort (although the lack of an exhaust isn't going to stop me firing it up). I've still got to fettle the big ends a little, but apart from that I'm just waiting for parts to arrive. It seems I have decided not to paint this engine just yet, but to go for the "oily rag" treatment (at least until I know it runs well). But, if I get bored waiting for parts to arrive I may well get the brushes out.

If the weather stays nice (& I'm feeling strong) I may well piece the whole thing together in the next few days, on it's trolley, & take some pics.

Nuts you've done a few nice metal putty repairs, they should sort that problem out. Your saying about the use of studs and bolts, these are maybe earlier repairs as I'm sure the rad will have been repaired a few times in it's life.

Stu.

I couldn't resist doing this



Superb cleaning job you've done there

Cheers. It kind of shows up the rest of the engine now. Maybe I will paint it after all, I might just have to anyway....

I checked out that crack on the water pipe, it was indeed a crack. So I have ground it out with the dremmel along it's entire length, made it into a nice V groove (sort of), nice & clean, bare metal surface & filled it in with J.B. Weld. There was another small crack on the engine, which seems to begin & end in the middle of nowhere (like this one, I couldn't trace it to an edge anywhere) which has had the same treatment.

Once the J.B. Weld has set I will sand it flat & prime it. Hopefully I will dig out some eye protection this time, & avoid getting the dust in my eyes (it's worse with the dremmel, as that tends to spit it into your eyes). Of course this will require painting afterwards, or at least priming.

I've also been repairing the rad cap with J.B. Weld, it looks like it's made from either black Bakelite or hard rubber, with a brass insert. It has started to break apart around the edges, so I broke off all the loose material & I'm building it up again (slowly) with the J.B. (I've run out of the putty, & have lost faith in it anyway).

Now, where am I going to get 2 flanges from??? They need to be 2 bolt fixing with a hole diameter of at least one inch (a bit like some single cylinder exhaust flanges).

Any ideas??? (I will get some pics & measurements tonight).

Do you know anybody with a vertical bandsaw and a pillar drill? You could possibly make your own out of some plate if you wished to spend the time on it. Using a hacksaw and file would probably do the job but a bandsaw would cut it out quicker. You could then drill the holes to the biggest diameter you can and open them out. Would be even easier to do on a milling machine but unfortunately for us they cost a massive amount of money usually

I've found some on stationaryengineparts.com from a Lister CS, but as usual for them they cost a fortune. I might be able to butcher something else, but that's looking unlikely.

I'm even considering buying one of these....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAT-AROSA-CORDOBA-IBIZA-LEON-TOLEDO-COOLANT-FLANGE-PIPE-WATER-OUTLET-032121121J-/190797594317?_trksid=p5197.m1992&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D14%26meid%3D5758315981140175423%26pid%3D100015%26prg%3D1006%26rk%3D1%26sd%3D190797594317%26



& seeing if it could be adapted to fit. It's not a massive amount to spend, & if I just bought one, & it could work, I could buy another later.

I've got some measurements anyway. The hole diameter is about 1+1/8" & the PCD between the 2 fixing studs is 2+3/8" (2.375" or just over 60mm) But anything roughly around those sizes could be adapted to fit. Unfortunately Lister D inlet manifold size is too small (I had an old carb gasket to check against), so I'm assuming Lister D exhaust flange size would also be too small (I think they're both the same size).

It's a good job these parts are going to take a while from Canada, as I think this is going to take some thought....

Matt I've checked and this part is not compatable with a Kohler engine Good find, there will be more similar car parts about but they'll all be about the same size, maybe if it needs to be bigger you'll have to try a commercial one. Could you not go to a car/commercial breakers and check out exhaust manifolds and coolant flanges see if they have anything that might do.

Matt a little tip I was told about when I went to college, If you have a crack it's best to find the ends and drill a small hole to stop the crack spreading any more. The hole stops the crack as it can't continue on it's same track. It's obvious it can only be done to some applications not all.

Stu.

Cheers Stu, I knew about the trick of drilling a hole at the end of a crack, but I didn't think it was a good idea in this case.

I have looked into it, & it looks like a Lister A exhaust flange will just about fit. The PCD of the holes is about 1/8" out, but the holes could be elongated. I'm looking at some on eBay at the moment as I really don't want to pay Stationaryengineparts prices. I could get a couple of them & make up some sort of solid pipe from 1+1/4" steel barrel to go between. Or, for now, I could buy an ehhaust pipe with thread both ends, cut it in half & stick some rubber hose on that.

I got a bit bored today, & despite this perishing cold weather it was dry, so I thought I would have a little play with this engine.

I got the trolley out & put the sump casting on, then I thought I would put my 5 usable rings onto the 3 usable pistons, put them in & connect up the big ends.
Then I managed (just) to lift the crank case, complete with crank shaft & flywheel, onto the oil sump & bolted on the timing gear case cover....





Then I put the head on, followed by the rocker assembly....



Topped off nicely with the rocker box cover (after doing the valve clearances by feel)....



Then I thought I would add the radiator & connect up the top pipe (both ends). Then add the carb & exhaust manifold to complete the picture....







I'm not quite sure why I have done this, even if I was prepared to try & run it without oil scraper rings it would only run on 2 cylinders as one is missing a piston & another is missing a valve, also there is no bottom pipe connection on the cooling, & I know some people run water cooled engines dry, but I don't believe in it (from an engineering standpoint it represents extremely bad practise, especially with very old cast iron engines, & I want this one to live, not die).

No, basically I was bored & wanted to see what was involved in putting it together. Actually it's not a difficult engine to piece together, once you've done it a couple of times. There's a few little oddities, like building the head/pushrods/rocker assembly all in the right order.

I've ordered some parts to make up a temporary bottom pipe connection. I'm going to try with some household plumbing bits & some pond filter system parts, see if I can lash something up until I can make or find the correct flanges & pipe. Here's a couple of pics of what I'm up against, showing the connection on the block & the bottom rad connection....





The holes are 1+1/4", which is just between 31 & 32mm. I have found a waste pipe reducer bung made from a kind of rubber, which should push in there & take a piece of 22mm copper pipe....



If necessary I could make up a flange shaped piece of metal to hold the bung in place. If that doesn't work there's these 32mm pond fittings....



They're available straight as well. I just ordered one elbow to try it out. I'm not too sure how the pond fittings will take the heat, but the waste pipe fittings should take it fine (as they are designed to take hot & cold water).

Anyway, it should get it running for me, whatever I end up using.

Oh yes, & I must have knocked my shins on that starting handle at least 3 times!

I can see that's going to be a bit of an issue.

Nuts if you wanted to you could always just run water through a hose into the engine once it's running, it will cause a lot of mess water everywhere but you could run it. Although I do think your being over cautious about running a water cooled engine without water in it. I've always ran engines without water as long as your sensible about it, also everyone I know that's mechanics, fitters or engineers you choose what you want to call them but they all do the same just be sensable only do it for a few minutes, and keep checking the block, head for how hot it is and there will be no problems and there's hardly any difference with air cooled designs to water cooled!!!, you'll find there's plenty of other things that's done to engines that could be more harmful then running without water for a few minutes. I find more harm is done to air cooled engines like lawn mowers, people run them on a red hot summers day there all caked in grass and dirt thus making the engine run alot hotter then normal and they get away with it.

Stu.

Stu, there's a huge difference between air & water cooled engines. Hot spots will form very quickly inside the castings of a water cooled engine, where you can't see or feel them. The castings of the 2 different types of engine are very different as, the thickness of metal will differ wildly in different places in the water jacket of a water cooled engine. Any imperfections in the casting will start to crack under stress between cold & hot spots. As we all know about welding & heating cast iron, it doesn't like heat differences & stress.

Also, there's the fact that the water doesn't just cool the engine, it also acts as a damper or shock absorber every time the engine fires. & helps to balance temperature evenly around the casting.

No true engineer would do it. Maybe just to see if it fires, but certainly no longer than a few seconds. It's one of the biggest no-no's in the book, along with leaving engines stored with no plug in the hole & smothering head gaskets with red hermetite (although the head gasket thing is a bit different, older engines with pitting & marked gaskets are OK with a thin smear of today's modern gasket compounds, in fact I will probably have to use some kind of compound on this one).

I don't want to get bogged down in all this anyway, I'm just stating the facts. If other people are happy to do such things then they take their chances. These old castings are almost 85 years old on this engine & there are already a couple of superficial cracks here & there. I think I would be asking for trouble with this one. I don't think it's worth it for the sake of a bucket of water.

I like your thinking though Stu, I could even block that bottom hole off & just fill the engine with water if necessary, it would be fine for a short run without the rad, but hopefully it won't come to it, my plumbing bits will arrive this week, so I can lash something up somehow. I've also ordered some different sealant compounds for whatever I decide to shove in the holes (& possibly for the head gasket joint). I still can't run it though, there are no oil scraper rings & I don't want to mount the magneto properly, as some of the bits are hard to get off again, & they will need to come off when the rest of the parts arrive. (the governor/magneto casting hides 2 of the bolts which hold the engine to the sump & the magneto drive gear is a pain to get on & off, I don't want to risk bending or breaking it with a puller as it's brass).

I might as well have a go with the drill powered wire brush & see what the paint comes off like. I might be waiting weeks for those parts from Canada, could have it all prepped & primed by then.

It might look nice in red oxide

Nuts we'll have to agree to disagree on this point, I can't see it doing any harm running without water for a few minutes as long as your sensable with it. The abuse these engines took working out in the field without causing serious damge has to say something about how there built and an engine that couldn't take it was no use to farmers etc who were after a days work no matter what.
A good example is the combine it's put to work nearly 24/7 for a few weeks then as soon as it's finished work it's parked in the barn, there's that many other jobs to do around harvest time the combine is left forgotten about until the following year before it's need to harvest then all sorts of problems crop up (bad pun lol) the reason being it was left, bearing seize up and these are normally big jobs to repair and just because of a bit of preventable maintainance.

Stu.

That's got nothing to do with running engines dry though Stu. I have stated the facts from a proper engineering viewpoint. If people choose to ignore the facts it's up to them. (People used to listen to engineers in this country, these days everyone seems to know better).

No doubt people get away with it, but for how long? You can't see or feel the damage it's doing, it is all dependant on how many faults there are in the metal inside that water jacket, now I like a gamble now & then, but I don't like to take chances with old engines. The crack in my Stuart Turner barrel was caused by over heating, not frost damage, & that was enough to make the bore go out of round.

I watched a video on another forum a while back of a bloke running a Lister CS diesel dry, he said it wouldn't matter as it wasn't for long. I checked it out & it was over 6 minutes! I couldn't believe it. I just hope I never have the misfortune of buying an engine that has passed through his hands. (it's especially important with diesel engines due to the extra shock loading).

The sensible thing to do is put some water in. I wouldn't run an engine dry for longer than 30 seconds.

I have studied engineering, including metallurgy (the microscopic crystal structure of metals in their various states). I also have a very good retired mechanic & engineer in the house. This is one of those things he drilled into us as kids, when we showed an interest in engines. Dunno who drilled it into him though. Whenever he saw an engine being run dry he would always say "he can't know much about engines" (referring to the owner/person running the engine). He always said the same when people left engines with no plug in the hole for any length of time.

Anyway, that's the facts behind the science, now I want to know some opinions. What about a paint colour???

I think I'm going to have to paint this engine, I'm not happy with the finish as it is & I want to treat any corrosion under the paint surface, but what colour do we reckon? I would like to find out the colour code number for Stuart Turner Green, but I recently saw a Wolseley WD2 for sale on eBay which was painted in "Wolseley Green" bought from Stationary Engine Parts. Now I don't think this is Wolseley green at all....



This looks more like Stuart Turner green, it certainly doesn't look like Wolseley green to me. I used to have a green Wolseley, & it was nothing like this colour. But I like this colour.

So, does anyone know the RAL or BS paint codes for these colours? (I don't want to buy paint from SEParts, they are just too expensive & I've heard it needs a lot of top coats, I've already had to use them for a fan belt, as it's 1" flat belt & I couldn't get it anywhere else, can't believe how much that alligator clip stuff costs! ).

I'm told these engines were black originally, but I don't think I want it black. That is the kind of green I'm after though, I think the Stuart green is very similar, maybe half a shade lighter? Maybe that nice shade of green that Morris used to paint their car engines (ever seen under the bonnet of a Morris Minor?)

Any ideas, anyone???

BTW, don't get me wrong, I like that Wolseley WD2. I just think Wolseley Green is a different colour. That looks more like the ruston hornsby golden green colour, which could be another contender for the Kohler.

I tell you what, forget about this water nonsense, I've stumbled upon a right can of worms looking for paint colours.

It seems no one really knows what the proper "Stuart Turner Green" is supposed to be. So I started looking for the "Morris Car Engine Green" (otherwise known as BMC Engine Green), & it seems that people have been debating that one for years!

I'm now stuck between Light Bronze Green (colour BS 381-222) & Middle Bronze Green (colour BS 381-223).

There's not much point looking at colour charts on line, for instance, you remember the colour I painted the Tarpen....



Well, this is what it looks like on an online colour chart....



As every time I pick a colour from a chart it seems to come out lighter, I think I will go for the slightly darker Middle Bronze Green, which (I believe) is the official colour that Morris painted their car engines.

But maybe the lighter, Light Bronze Green, would look better???

OK, so what's it to be?

Mid Bronze Green (used on BMC engines)?....



Or Light Bronze Green (used on some Ruston Hornsby engines, I believe)?....



I'm starting to edge towards the lighter colour, but just can't make my mind up.

Sorry, those pictures are HUGE!

this who i use i usually take them a sample and they colour match them, - http://www.jawel.co.uk/ - i think Kohler would be good in deep orange, but i am colour blind that Tarpen looks smart - nice and fresh.

You forgot another colour British Racing Green on an american engine !!!
I think it would look good in red it would go with the brass radiator + other brass part's
or this colour