Something for the electrical gurus, help please of sussing out a replacement voltage regulator.

I have a fire pump fitted with a ford 1600 petrol engine, unfortunately it has stopped charging the battery, having stripped it back to access the regulator it would seem going by the fault finding steps in the Godiva manual the regulator has given up the ghost.

Is it possible to repair these units, are there any alternatives which I could fit or must it be like for like.

The Boyers Brandsen company still is in operation but I thought I would ask here to see if anyone has had any experience with these units and if a know replacement is available.

There is a plug which has 2 yellow wires and a red from the alternator, the red red/white and white all connect into one connector heading to the ignition on/off, (push button to start) with the brown going to the charging lamp, and black to ground, I started the pump with a lamp between the 2 yellow wires from the alternator and it lit so alternator is fine.

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Thanks for taking the time to have a look.

Chris

What Ford engine is it? (looks like a possibly a CVH?), I'm thinking you could fit an alternator with built in regulator from whatever car it was fitted to.

There is no auxiliary belt the fan is bolted on the the crank, yes it is the cvh engine, it could be done I guess with some work, cutting the guards but hoping to have a as near like for like fix if possible,
Cheers

Do you have a link to the wiring diagram?, it may give me a few ideas.

chrismac wrote:There is no auxiliary belt the fan is bolted on the the crank, yes it is the cvh engine, it could be done I guess with some work, cutting the guards but hoping to have a as near like for like fix if possible,
Cheers

How is the alternator driven now?

An auto electrician with experience of older cars may be able to help, the only alternator with a separate regulator I can remember was on a 60's Humber Sceptre I had many years ago.

Robotstar5 wrote:Do you have a link to the wiring diagram?, it may give me a few ideas.

Will do, I'll get it in a wee while, thanks in advance,

Chris

mattblack wrote:

chrismac wrote:There is no auxiliary belt the fan is bolted on the the crank, yes it is the cvh engine, it could be done I guess with some work, cutting the guards but hoping to have a as near like for like fix if possible,
Cheers

How is the alternator driven now?

An auto electrician with experience of older cars may be able to help, the only alternator with a separate regulator I can remember was on a 60's Humber Sceptre I had many years ago.

Its direct drive, it slips over the pump shaft, quite a unique set up for a car engine,

Alternator location 3rd from the right in the middle image

Pump Alternator by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Wiring diagram, hopefully there is some relevant info there,

Pump Wiring diagram by chrismac2012, on Flickr

Chris

I'm at a loss, I can't match the diagram with your photo of the alternator control unit, the diagram doesn't seem to show it

Robotstar5 wrote:I'm at a loss, I can't match the diagram with your photo of the alternator control unit, the diagram doesn't seem to show it

Yep that seems to be the way of it, I am wondering if when the Godiva wrote the manual there was no component fault finding to be carried out, meaning the wiring diagram only shows the actual wires rather than a full diagram, Thanks for trying to take a look.

Chris

I can't see from the pictures what type of alternator is fitted.
Having looked at the Boyer Bransden site; it looks like their regulators are for permanent magnet alternators, I don't know how they regulate. I suppose they disconnect the output to the battery when the cycle voltage reaches 15volts.

The vehicle alternator type uses an electromagnet. as opposed to a permanent magnet, and the external regulator would switch the supply to this off when the circuit voltage reached 14-15volts. So this would be of no use to you.

Someone may well know better.

George.

Robotstar5 wrote:I'm at a loss, I can't match the diagram with your photo of the alternator control unit, the diagram doesn't seem to show it

I have very roughly attempted to draw the voltage regulator on the drawing previously added with the wires of interest going to where they go.

Untitled by chrismac2012, on Flickr

I have sent an email to Boyer Bransden to see if they can help, I am not holding out much hope as Godiva seem to have their stuff quite inaccessible for the general public to purchase,  thats why I was hoping one the the general units supplied from them or someone else might be an alternative, I think I have not gathered the alternator is 3 phase. thats relevant in the replacement but does not mean a lot to me, I caertainly know its not 440v its spitting out, or at least I hope not..

Another question, is it possible to open up the box and replace the damaged component, I know its filled with some epoxy type electrical stuff to seal it all up, I just wondered if thats an option. nothing ventured and nothing gained sort of thing.

Chris

oldgit wrote: I can't see from the pictures what type of alternator is fitted.
Having looked at the Boyer Bransden site; it looks like their regulators are for permanent magnet alternators, I don't know how they regulate. I suppose they disconnect the output to the battery when the cycle voltage reaches 15volts.

The vehicle alternator type uses an electromagnet. as opposed to a permanent magnet, and the external regulator would switch the supply to this off when the circuit voltage reached 14-15volts. So this would be of no use to you.
 
Someone may well know better.

George.

I also dont know and that information is not easy to get, I might phone or email Godiva to see if they have anyone who can assist,

Thanks
Chris

I could ask on a hot rod forum I go on if you like, lots of knowledgeable people on there.

I still think an auto (or maybe plant) electrician could have the answer, the location of the alternator is unconventional but surely the principal will be the same, it will be putting out AC which is rectified/regulated by the external unit to around 14.4V DC to charge the battery?

mattblack wrote:I could ask on a hot rod forum I go on if you like, lots of knowledgeable people on there.

I still think an auto (or maybe plant) electrician could have the answer, the location of the alternator is unconventional but surely the principal will be the same, it will be putting out AC which is rectified/regulated by the external unit to around 14.4V DC to charge the battery?

If its not too much hassle feel free, I agree with out knowing too much about it yet, I'll be better placed if it gets fixed, you would think something that does the regulating for any type of thing like this would be more or less the same, I still cant work out how it charges the battery, must just be a trickle feed as there are no heavy wires that I can see apart from the battery terminal connections.

Cheers Chris

I have a job to read anything on that wiring diagram, I've tried wearing 5 pairs of specs at once, and a loupe; but it looks to me that the output from the alternator, after passing through the regulator comes through a fuse on a sub panel and joins the permanently live wire between the starter and the start switch.

This system is handy for this application; it's done away with a drive belt and brushes which is two less things to go wrong.

A motorcycle electrician might know; as I think they may use permanent magnet alternators.

Regarding the regulators, the usual vehicle type controls the strength of the magnetism in the rotor to regulate the output.
The strength of the magnetism in the permanent magnet type is fixed; so it needs a different method to limit the output.

good luck with this.

I posted this thread up on the forum, someone has suggested that Harleys (and other bikes) use similar permanent magnet alternators so a motorbike shop/electrician may have the answer?

OK, after a bit of searching I found this

https://www.feked.com/boyer-three-phase-12v-power-box-alternator-regulator-with-charging-light-control.html

All the wires from your present unit confused me until I realised Red, Red/White and White are linked so they would be replaced by the Red wire on the above unit

One of the pictures shows all the connections so I won't repeat them, but happy to clarify anything.

Robotstar5 wrote:OK, after a bit of searching I found this

https://www.feked.com/boyer-three-phase-12v-power-box-alternator-regulator-with-charging-light-control.html

All the wires from your present unit confused me until I realised Red, Red/White and White are linked so they would be replaced by the Red wire on the above unit

One of the pictures shows all the connections so I won't repeat them, but happy to clarify anything.

Thanks for your help, to update, the replacement was fitted and we are now charging as all is well.

Chris